Some insight on rust approach

[Paul Schmidt]

Posted this over on my build thread (https://7173mustangs.com/threads/1972-mustang-coupe-302.45323/#post-457059)...but wanted to make sure I was posting this stuff in the right place.

Just an update for all following the build. Took a couple hours yesterday (after a day of endless meetings) and spent some detail time with the car. Initially all seems to be pretty solid operationally, which is the biggest weight off the list. I replaced the transmission filter, oil filter, plugs, battery and a majority of the hoses that were substantially in need of replacement. Also put in a new Edelbrock carb and air cleaner. She is running really strong (fingers crossed) and the engine tick that it came with it was indeed just an oil issue...not anything more and was solved with the oil swap out. Not sure when the last oil change was done, but it would appear it had been a hot minute. Next up will be the brakes and most likely a new exhaust system, which also needs to be replaced. Also going to have to address all new weatherstripping...as that's shot as well.

One of the main issues I'm going to have to address when I sand her down is going to be two significant spots of rust damage. There are a lot of small surface rust issues that can be sanded out, but these two spots are pretty brutal at first glance. You can see in the pictures, there are two fairly large spots that I am either going to have to replace completely...or (gasp) address with some filler. I know the B-word is an unspoken sin, but at the end of the day (and as mentioned) I am not building this for show or some significant sale. She's gonna be my fun-ride until either she breaks down or I do. So I'm not overly concerned with a little bondo repair here and there, but I have yet to really clean the spots up and investigate more thoroughly. It might be significant enough where I have to replace the panels ( a little out of my wheelhouse) before I set the garage up to paint her fully. If anyone has any other suggestions or opinions on this...by all means fire away. I'm not a pro restorer...so I'm doing a lot of this on my own and through trial and error. I know my way around engines, but bodywork, painting, wiring...there are quite a few areas I am living off of youtube videos to conquer.

Once I get the engine cleaned up and everything back in order, I'll update with more pics. But again, from the initial diagnosis, she appears to be in much better condition than I would have expected and anticipated. More to come.

[Edit on this] - to clarify, I am not necessarily a proponent of filler, however in this situation, I have two options (one being more pricey) to choose from on a car that doesn't necessarily need to be show-perfect. I can go into these spots, wire brush them down, use some rust encapsulator, fill the holes with filler, sand them down, then prime and paint (cost-effective and within my abilities) or I can have these sections professionally welded with new material and done, with a substantial cost increase added to my running tab. Unless I am missing something, those seem to be the options...and obviously I am leaning towards doing it myself. Again, input welcome.

PBR

 

[Steve McMahan]

Is it fair to say that there is rust under each of those pieces of tape (looks like duct tape)? Those sections on each side of the sail panels are very common rust areas. It’s where the roof and the sail panel merge. Both of mine on my 73 Grande need significant body work.

That one area on the rear deck is gonna need some metal replacement. I’m not sure you need a panel there, but pieces to replace the bad metal. Good luck.

 

[Paul Schmidt]

Is it fair to say that there is rust under each of those pieces of tape (looks like duct tape)? Those sections on each side of the sail panels are very common rust areas. It’s where the roof and the sail panel merge. Both of mine on my 73 Grande need significant body work.

That one area on the rear deck is gonna need some metal replacement. I’m not sure you need a panel there, but pieces to replace the bad metal. Good luck.

Steve- yeah the owner taped over the spots as he was not equipped to deal with it. I'm going to spend more detailed time on the areas this week and see how bad they really are. Definitely can see its going to need some metal replacement tho.

 

[giantpune]

The rust at the corner of the windshield looks extra crunchy. Rule of thumb with an old car is if there's something rusted that bad that you can see, there's 20x that much that you can't see. Adjust your expectations.

Its like mice in your house. If you see 1, you have 20 in the walls.

And bad news is the A pillars are one of the things that's not reproduced. You get some of the A pillar when you buy an entire new roof skin. Your best bet is probably contact somebody with a parts car to cut that chunk out of.

 

[Don C]

Posted this over on my build thread (https://7173mustangs.com/threads/1972-mustang-coupe-302.45323/#post-457059)...but wanted to make sure I was posting this stuff in the right place.

Just an update for all following the build. Took a couple hours yesterday (after a day of endless meetings) and spent some detail time with the car. Initially all seems to be pretty solid operationally, which is the biggest weight off the list. I replaced the transmission filter, oil filter, plugs, battery and a majority of the hoses that were substantially in need of replacement. Also put in a new Edelbrock carb and air cleaner. She is running really strong (fingers crossed) and the engine tick that it came with it was indeed just an oil issue...not anything more and was solved with the oil swap out. Not sure when the last oil change was done, but it would appear it had been a hot minute. Next up will be the brakes and most likely a new exhaust system, which also needs to be replaced. Also going to have to address all new weatherstripping...as that's shot as well.

One of the main issues I'm going to have to address when I sand her down is going to be two significant spots of rust damage. There are a lot of small surface rust issues that can be sanded out, but these two spots are pretty brutal at first glance. You can see in the pictures, there are two fairly large spots that I am either going to have to replace completely...or (gasp) address with some filler. I know the B-word is an unspoken sin, but at the end of the day (and as mentioned) I am not building this for show or some significant sale. She's gonna be my fun-ride until either she breaks down or I do. So I'm not overly concerned with a little bondo repair here and there, but I have yet to really clean the spots up and investigate more thoroughly. It might be significant enough where I have to replace the panels ( a little out of my wheelhouse) before I set the garage up to paint her fully. If anyone has any other suggestions or opinions on this...by all means fire away. I'm not a pro restorer...so I'm doing a lot of this on my own and through trial and error. I know my way around engines, but bodywork, painting, wiring...there are quite a few areas I am living off of youtube videos to conquer.

Once I get the engine cleaned up and everything back in order, I'll update with more pics. But again, from the initial diagnosis, she appears to be in much better condition than I would have expected and anticipated. More to come.

[Edit on this] - to clarify, I am not necessarily a proponent of filler, however in this situation, I have two options (one being more pricey) to choose from on a car that doesn't necessarily need to be show-perfect. I can go into these spots, wire brush them down, use some rust encapsulator, fill the holes with filler, sand them down, then prime and paint (cost-effective and within my abilities) or I can have these sections professionally welded with new material and done, with a substantial cost increase added to my running tab. Unless I am missing something, those seem to be the options...and obviously I am leaning towards doing it myself. Again, input welcome.

PBR

I would use the money that you would pay someone else to do it right (metal patches) and buy a MIG/TIG welder and a small oxy-acetylene setup and repair them yourself. I have saved a lot of money over the years repairing and making things with mine.

 

[rvrtrash]

The rust looks bad enough that you are going to have to replace metal. Do yourself a favor and fix it correctly before spending thousands on a paint job.

 

[Sheriff41]

Get yourself a MIG / wire-feed FCAW welder, get on YouTube, and learn to weld. You'll need to replace parts orcut out the rot and add good metal.

 

[Hemikiller]

I would never use filler to any of those patch holes, it's just going to fail and you'll be right back where you are in no time. A wire feed MIG welder is not a huge expense, you can learn on your own and have much better results that'll last. A bad welded patch is 100x better than well done bondo anyday. Harbor Freight has some budget priced welders that get good reviews. I bought a Yes Welder 205DS off Amazon as a more portable solution to my ancient Century, and it's a very nice unit.

The roof needs to be looked at carefully. If you're simply going for a budget fix, you could cut back the rusted metal to good and fab some patches. Only way you're going to know how bad it is will be to dig into it. You might be able to see more if you remove the A-pillar and door opening moldings. You can pull the headliner back to see what's going on in there. You should also look carefully at the A pillar post where the door hinges bolt onto. That hole is allowing water into that area.

The trunk area is a relatively easy fix. The quarter skin is spot welded to the inner trunk lip structure. If the corner filler is intact, then a patch could be fabricated and welded in. If not, the corners are available in reproduction.

https://www.npdlink.com/1965-1973-m...er-taillight-panel-to-quarter-panel?year=1971

I also see duct tape at the rear window transition panel. That panel is not reproduced. You may have rot in the rear window channel as well, given the locations of these other issues.

 

[Paul M]

I have some examples of rust repairs on this sight in media files. I personally would by a mig welder and do a little practice, then tack weld in the patches yourself

Posted this over on my build thread (https://7173mustangs.com/threads/1972-mustang-coupe-302.45323/#post-457059)...but wanted to make sure I was posting this stuff in the right place.

Just an update for all following the build. Took a couple hours yesterday (after a day of endless meetings) and spent some detail time with the car. Initially all seems to be pretty solid operationally, which is the biggest weight off the list. I replaced the transmission filter, oil filter, plugs, battery and a majority of the hoses that were substantially in need of replacement. Also put in a new Edelbrock carb and air cleaner. She is running really strong (fingers crossed) and the engine tick that it came with it was indeed just an oil issue...not anything more and was solved with the oil swap out. Not sure when the last oil change was done, but it would appear it had been a hot minute. Next up will be the brakes and most likely a new exhaust system, which also needs to be replaced. Also going to have to address all new weatherstripping...as that's shot as well.

One of the main issues I'm going to have to address when I sand her down is going to be two significant spots of rust damage. There are a lot of small surface rust issues that can be sanded out, but these two spots are pretty brutal at first glance. You can see in the pictures, there are two fairly large spots that I am either going to have to replace completely...or (gasp) address with some filler. I know the B-word is an unspoken sin, but at the end of the day (and as mentioned) I am not building this for show or some significant sale. She's gonna be my fun-ride until either she breaks down or I do. So I'm not overly concerned with a little bondo repair here and there, but I have yet to really clean the spots up and investigate more thoroughly. It might be significant enough where I have to replace the panels ( a little out of my wheelhouse) before I set the garage up to paint her fully. If anyone has any other suggestions or opinions on this...by all means fire away. I'm not a pro restorer...so I'm doing a lot of this on my own and through trial and error. I know my way around engines, but bodywork, painting, wiring...there are quite a few areas I am living off of youtube videos to conquer.

Once I get the engine cleaned up and everything back in order, I'll update with more pics. But again, from the initial diagnosis, she appears to be in much better condition than I would have expected and anticipated. More to come.

[Edit on this] - to clarify, I am not necessarily a proponent of filler, however in this situation, I have two options (one being more pricey) to choose from on a car that doesn't necessarily need to be show-perfect. I can go into these spots, wire brush them down, use some rust encapsulator, fill the holes with filler, sand them down, then prime and paint (cost-effective and within my abilities) or I can have these sections professionally welded with new material and done, with a substantial cost increase added to my running tab. Unless I am missing something, those seem to be the options...and obviously I am leaning towards doing it myself. Again, input welcome.

PBR

I personally would purchase a budget mig welder & do it myself. You'll end up grinding the rust away and cutting some holes. You'll need to use a small handheld sand blaster and clean out what is underneath it. Follow it up with a soaking of phosphorus acid via metal prep from a paint store. Make some metal patches to match the exact sizes of the holes you cut out, bear in mind the contour (you may have to shape the metal a little bit) Tack weld them in place jumping around not to stay in one area. I'd also have patience to wait not to heat up the panel too much. I also use damp rags to absorb some of the heat from the area. you can make templates from paper and use your fingernail to make an imprint on the paper to transfer your shapes. I have examples on Media here on pages 5 & 6.

 

[cv_72mustang]

Check out Fitzee on YouTube.

 

[Paul Schmidt]

I would use the money that you would pay someone else to do it right (metal patches) and buy a MIG/TIG welder and a small oxy-acetylene setup and repair them yourself. I have saved a lot of money over the years repairing and making things with mine.

Don, would love to do that, but I have never welded or done any metal work before. Not to say I couldn't manage it, but I have zero experience. Not sure it would just open a rabbit hole bigger than dealing with it professionally. If you have any resources or videos on basic metal replacement, I'll take a look and see if it wouldn't be worth figuring it out.

 

[Don C]

You might try Eastwood, they have a lot of videos and articles on car repairs, including welding and rust management.
https://www.eastwood.com/garage/

 

[Paul Schmidt]

I would never use filler to any of those patch holes, it's just going to fail and you'll be right back where you are in no time. A wire feed MIG welder is not a huge expense, you can learn on your own and have much better results that'll last. A bad welded patch is 100x better than well done bondo anyday. Harbor Freight has some budget priced welders that get good reviews. I bought a Yes Welder 205DS off Amazon as a more portable solution to my ancient Century, and it's a very nice unit.

The roof needs to be looked at carefully. If you're simply going for a budget fix, you could cut back the rusted metal to good and fab some patches. Only way you're going to know how bad it is will be to dig into it. You might be able to see more if you remove the A-pillar and door opening moldings. You can pull the headliner back to see what's going on in there. You should also look carefully at the A pillar post where the door hinges bolt onto. That hole is allowing water into that area.

The trunk area is a relatively easy fix. The quarter skin is spot welded to the inner trunk lip structure. If the corner filler is intact, then a patch could be fabricated and welded in. If not, the corners are available in reproduction.

https://www.npdlink.com/1965-1973-m...er-taillight-panel-to-quarter-panel?year=1971

I also see duct tape at the rear window transition panel. That panel is not reproduced. You may have rot in the rear window channel as well, given the locations of these other issues.

View attachment 91853

Based on the advice and feedback, I'm going to look into the MIG option and just start learning how to weld. Nothing wrong with learning something new anyway. More to come.

 

[Fabrice]

Oh and cancel any plans for a respectable amount of weekends!

 

[Paul Schmidt]

I did some digging on the welding and logistics involved with it, as well as making sure I'm being honest with myself about my capabilities here. I did find a local shop that came out about an hour ago (mom and pop shop, but the guy drove out on a Sunday to see it). My age, great guy, has personal recommendations and phone numbers of clients. Took a look at the spots in questions and agreed with much that you all stated. Defintely not a patch-fix situation. If he just does the metal work, replacement of good metal with bad and sand down the car for me to prime and paint, $2500. He also offered to do the work, prep, prime and paint for $4300. Considering I don't know the going rates, that seems fairly reasonable for the metal work at least. I can do the prime and painting, thats not an issue. Thoughts?

 

[giantpune]

Check out Fitzee on YouTube.

The ol' cut-n-butt king.

 

[giantpune]

I did some digging on the welding and logistics involved with it, as well as making sure I'm being honest with myself about my capabilities here. I did find a local shop that came out about an hour ago (mom and pop shop, but the guy drove out on a Sunday to see it). My age, great guy, has personal recommendations and phone numbers of clients. Took a look at the spots in questions and agreed with much that you all stated. Defintely not a patch-fix situation. If he just does the metal work, replacement of good metal with bad and sand down the car for me to prime and paint, $2500. He also offered to do the work, prep, prime and paint for $4300. Considering I don't know the going rates, that seems fairly reasonable for the metal work at least. I can do the prime and painting, thats not an issue. Thoughts?

The thing you have to watch out for is some of these body guys will string the customer along. Like I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of rust in that car you haven't seen yet. You will start seeing it when you start cutting into it to repair what you can see.

It is a common business practice for some less scrupulous body guys and fabricators to start with a low number like $2500, to get the customer to drop their car off. And knowing full well that they'll find more rust along the way. They get the customer to agree to pay for the next repair, then the next one, then the next one. The process takes a year and they milk the customer dry. By the time they're done, the customer has spent more in repairs than it would have been to buy a car that didn't even need repairs.

Not saying your guy is like that, but its something to watch out for and recognize it if it starts happening.


And About the paint and priming, that it the sort of work that takes a lot of time and special equipment. What all are you getting for the $1800 difference? How much of the car is he painting? I think either way, its probably worth it. You spend your time doing something you're good at to earn the money to pay him. Otherwise, if you use this car to learn on, you'll spend more than that $1800 worth of time and buying painting equipment and it wont come out as nice is if the pro did it. You have to decide if this is the car you want to learn on. Your first one wont be great.

 

[Paul Schmidt]

The thing you have to watch out for is some of these body guys will string the customer along. Like I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of rust in that car you haven't seen yet. You will start seeing it when you start cutting into it to repair what you can see.

It is a common business practice for some less scrupulous body guys and fabricators to start with a low number like $2500, to get the customer to drop their car off. And knowing full well that they'll find more rust along the way. They get the customer to agree to pay for the next repair, then the next one, then the next one. The process takes a year and they milk the customer dry. By the time they're done, the customer has spent more in repairs than it would have been to buy a car that didn't even need repairs.

Not saying your guy is like that, but its something to watch out for and recognize it if it starts happening.


And About the paint and priming, that it the sort of work that takes a lot of time and special equipment. What all are you getting for the $1800 difference? How much of the car is he painting? I think either way, its probably worth it. You spend your time doing something you're good at to earn the money to pay him. Otherwise, if you use this car to learn on, you'll spend more than that $1800 worth of time and buying painting equipment and it wont come out as nice is if the pro did it. You have to decide if this is the car you want to learn on. Your first one wont be great.

Totally agree. Honestly, as I said before, I'm an engine guy...and while I can paint...and probably could learn to weld, I would rather focus my efforts on the items I know I have control of (engine, performance, etc, parts), and leave the painting and the body work issues to get it done right, to the pros. So I am thinking that it would be worth it just in the time I save and to your point, the final outcome. I don't plan to put this in shows, but I do want to drive it and have it look decent. I'd rather not try and half-ass a learning process and have this thing sitting in the garage because I became irritated in how its coming out.

And to your point, I am vetting the guy, and this was literally just an initial first-look. He said he would definitely need to take it into the shop, dive in deeper, and see exactly what the situation is in order to stand by his numbers. He was even pretty direct in that he mentioned that was a best-case scenario number. End of the day, he's a good ole boy, and turns out, has had a couple muscle cars of his own. So we'll see. I'm sure it will be more once he gets in there, but I'll feel better about the final outcome versus me "attempting" it.

More to come.

PBR