steering system rebuild

[Stanglover]

I have been through it all too. Rebuilt box, all new suspension, new alignment, good tires, rebuilt column.

Mine wanders a little at center. Feels like I can oversteer at any time on a 2 lane road. I found play when I twist on the rag joint, so I am going to replace/rebuild that. I am blessed enough to have tilt steering to help drive my restoration costs up for no real benefit. So I have one of the handful of unreproduced parts in the rag joint that is unique to the tilt column. I think that will solve the wandering problem though.

kcmash

In your case it could definitely be the rag joint, so I would agree first thing to fix.
On mine, I have 3 degrees of castor dialed in and it still feels it could oversteer. I'm planning on increasing that to 4 or even 4.5 degrees.

 

[California 72]

Stanglover,

Okay, so it's not the QR upgrade that's being experienced, and you bring up a good point I'd like to ask about as well as expand on. Maybe I should preemptivly apologzde for terminology as well. Just that age thing again.

Should I be adjusting the sector shaft on a new box? Either I'm blind and completely missed it in the destructions or that would be a flat-out no. My car will track straight as an arrow and I even just finished giving myself motion sickness from running it through swift cornering in a parking lot to see how it acted. Had a lot of creaks and knocks from both me and the car. Wheel is tight, almost too tight without much return assist from caster and camber most. Probably should look at getting it aligned again.

Anyhow, it's during an easy bank it will sporadically bounce steer left and right. Meaning, when I bank left you can feel the steering swing back right and visa versa. Also, experiencing a little bit of steering wheel drift in the direction you're turning. Meaning, it continues to turn but the car does not react.

Something haunting me is its air causing the issue, but I've spent more than an hour and a half running it through the bleed process (accumulative time). Is there a trick I'm missing to bleeding the system, is the screw needing adjustment or is it my screw that out? I even removed the pressure hose from the mounted position and pulled it through the bottom of the engine bay to aid removing the air.

Edit: Having made additional efforts at bleeding the steering system, even using a vacuum pump to help, it doesn't look like I'm getting anywhere with this. Williamsburg Ford seems to enjoy when the car comes in so I believe I'm just going have them perform a follow-up alignment and ask if they can power bleed the system. Just don't have the time to be fighting this now since I'm traveling today thru Tuesday. Hopefully I'll survive driving the car next week since my schedule and required use of the car wed through sun is non-negotiable. Heck, it may just bleed itself as I drive it more and my route also avoids I-64 into Hampton Roads so that's a saving grace. There are a couple of ya'll out there from that area know what I'm talking about. Catch ya'll later.

 

[Charles S. Williams]

Need help desperately to solve the High pressure hose problem for the power steering. Build date is before May 1972 so I have the long hose but it wasn't on the car when I purchased it. The new hose is the correct hose but the routing and connection is posing an issue. The fitting that attaches the hose to the pump is missing and need a replacement. We've already installed the hoses on the gear box so, how is this handled and what exactly is the hose route? Thank you
Edit: Found this in another post so I need the line (circled) that connects the hose to the pump.
View attachment 73199

TUBE, PRESSURE LINE TO PUMP
#3E576-1B National Parts Depot

 

[Stanglover]

Stanglover,

Okay, so it's not the QR upgrade that's being experienced, and you bring up a good point I'd like to ask about as well as expand on. Maybe I should preemptivly apologzde for terminology as well. Just that age thing again.

Should I be adjusting the sector shaft on a new box? Either I'm blind and completely missed it in the destructions or that would be a flat-out no. My car will track straight as an arrow and I even just finished giving myself motion sickness from running it through swift cornering in a parking lot to see how it acted. Had a lot of creaks and knocks from both me and the car. Wheel is tight, almost too tight without much return assist from caster and camber most. Probably should look at getting it aligned again.

Anyhow, it's during an easy bank it will sporadically bounce steer left and right. Meaning, when I bank left you can feel the steering swing back right and visa versa. Also, experiencing a little bit of steering wheel drift in the direction you're turning. Meaning, it continues to turn but the car does not react.

Something haunting me is its air causing the issue, but I've spent more than an hour and a half running it through the bleed process (accumulative time). Is there a trick I'm missing to bleeding the system, is the screw needing adjustment or is it my screw that out? I even removed the pressure hose from the mounted position and pulled it through the bottom of the engine bay to aid removing the air.

Edit: Having made additional efforts at bleeding the steering system, even using a vacuum pump to help, it doesn't look like I'm getting anywhere with this. Williamsburg Ford seems to enjoy when the car comes in so I believe I'm just going have them perform a follow-up alignment and ask if they can power bleed the system. Just don't have the time to be fighting this now since I'm traveling today thru Tuesday. Hopefully I'll survive driving the car next week since my schedule and required use of the car wed through sun is non-negotiable. Heck, it may just bleed itself as I drive it more and my route also avoids I-64 into Hampton Roads so that's a saving grace. There are a couple of ya'll out there from that area know what I'm talking about. Catch ya'll later.

Interesting, but first please understand I'm not an expert on power steering. I learned with help from our friend Bentworker and others as well as good ol' YouTube, out of necessity. I had installed used PS on my car, but the box was "not good". I sent it to a so called PS rebuild shop nearby, only to experience one problem after another. Without going into a long story, suffice it to say, I wasn't taking it back to that clown. That's when I decided to learn for myself.
If you had your box rebuilt by a reputable shop, the pre-loads ought to have been set correctly. Pre-loads are very important and are measured in inch/pounds. If I thought it necessary to adjust the sector shaft, mark the Allen hex socket position relative to the cap, loosen the lock nut without letting the hex socket move, then back off the hex 1/4 turn max counter clockwise. tighten the lock nut and try it out. If it improves leave it there, if not return it to the mark. In reality, I don't think that will be the problem, but something to keep in mind.
All in all, it seems like the PS box is pretty good from what you say, so I'd first look at alignment. I have a guy who I trust and is very knowledgeable. He won't be at work on Monday ( holiday here), but I can ask his opinion for what you are describing and get back to you.
As I mentioned before, my car does seem to want to understeer and does not return to center quite as quickly as I'd like, so I plan on increasing the castor degrees from 3 to 4 +.
Let us know if that helps.

 

[Hemikiller]

I would check the preload before you install the new box. A simple $20 beam torque wrench in inch-pounds is all that's needed. If it's not within spec, return it, warranty it etc.

A little history - I had bought a reman Lares 807 QR box, but it was never "right". Was tight when I installed it and never changed with time, wouldn't return to center, etc. I removed it when I did my 351C swap last year and turns out it was built incorrectly, with over 35 in/lbs of preload from lock to lock with no change over the center. Factory spec is 4-8 off center. Normally I'd have rebuilt my own box, but due to time constraints, I elected to give the Lares box a try. Warranty was not a problem as it's lifetime and Summit Racing makes it really easy. I tested the replacement box when it arrived and it spec'ed out perfectly at 8 at the sides and 13 over the center.

 

[California 72]

Apologies to leave ya'll hanging on a response. Had an impromptu trip to a project site Sunday and just arrived home last evening. Without any other options and my wife needing her car back, I needed to put the '72 on the road this week. It's a simple situation where if I call out and miss this assignment, especially at this late date without being on my deathbed, I'll lose it for certain. Decided to make an appointment Tuesday for the car. They're gonna run it through the alignment process as a preventive measure and check the system over. There are a couple knocks in the suspension that are concerning so they'll be looked at as well. I've done all I can without a lift and the guy who could rent me one is so swamped with cars for race/driving season, he can't help.

Good thing the drive I'm making today is one with options where I can avoid most of the heavily winding roads, where it seems to be at its worst, especially with movements to the right. We've all driven our cars when they are "squirrelly" beyond belief especially if we bought them as used in the late 70's and with no extra money to put into them. The awareness level that's needed is almost second nature, especially since I had a severe swing on the wheel from side to side before this new one was installed. Today is gonna bite anyhow. I've avoided driving the car in the rain since we purchased it and this trip is not going to be dry. Luckily, I can leave it parked and walk to the site all week.

Catch ya'll later.

 

[Stanglover]

Apologies to leave ya'll hanging on a response. Had an impromptu trip to a project site Sunday and just arrived home last evening. Without any other options and my wife needing her car back, I needed to put the '72 on the road this week. It's a simple situation where if I call out and miss this assignment, especially at this late date without being on my deathbed, I'll lose it for certain. Decided to make an appointment Tuesday for the car. They're gonna run it through the alignment process as a preventive measure and check the system over. There are a couple knocks in the suspension that are concerning so they'll be looked at as well. I've done all I can without a lift and the guy who could rent me one is so swamped with cars for race/driving season, he can't help.

Good thing the drive I'm making today is one with options where I can avoid most of the heavily winding roads, where it seems to be at its worst, especially with movements to the right. We've all driven our cars when they are "squirrelly" beyond belief especially if we bought them as used in the late 70's and with no extra money to put into them. The awareness level that's needed is almost second nature, especially since I had a severe swing on the wheel from side to side before this new one was installed. Today is gonna bite anyhow. I've avoided driving the car in the rain since we purchased it and this trip is not going to be dry. Luckily, I can leave it parked and walk to the site all week.

Catch ya'll later.

Reading what hemikiller said, I think you likely have the same problem, the total preload is over spec. The numbers he is stating are right on. The big problem is to check that, you'll have to remove the box to do it on the bench.
Going back to what I mentioned about adjusting the sector shaft preload in while in the car is not optimal, but may help. However, the input shaft preload may be too high also and for that, the box will need to be pulled.
I don't think the problem will put you in a ditch, but is for sure a little scary to drive.
Here are a couple of pics on setting preload with a low range in/lb beam wrench. 66 my tools. 62 sector shaft preload (not final), 65 input shaft preload.
This is not to make this too complicated, just to help.
Oh, in case anyone spots it, there is a second casting in the background, not the one I'm working on.

 

[Stanglover]

@California 72
I just talked to "my guy" who does my alignment work. I printed off and showed him your post back to me re bounce steer left and right. His immediate response was " pressure in the return hose" may be caused by either a bad check valve in the HP port or missing. It could be possible to not get those seated correctly so it sticks or leaks.
You may need to have that box looked at, pull the HP flare and check the valve. This may not be the only reason, but he feels most likely.
Sorry it's been so long getting back to you, so I hope I'm not too late to the party!

Edited @ 12:20 pm.
This keeps playing on my mind. Rethinking why or how pressure could be getting back into the return hose, it occurred to me that IF one or more of the teflon rings on the rotation valve assembly was either worn or not creating a seal between the valve and the casting, pressure could leak back. This is hard to describe, but I had one casting that was scrapped due to deep grooves worn into bore by the teflon seal rings. In other words, the groove was so deep, more than .005", that the teflon seal ring could not hold back the fluid on the hp side, therefore causing a back pressure in the return line. This could be what's happening here.
Again, I'm no expert on PS boxes, but after having done a few, this is how I see it.

 

[California 72]

Really apologize for the late responses but it's been a couple weeks for the books! Given the situation with our main car, I took the '72 in to have a go over and possibly see about getting it registered with an inspection and everything went south. The new steering and added use because of the daily driver issues have caused the old parts to fail and it's not just something simple like tie rods. Control arms, spring seats and bushings, brakes (F and R) bushings and a cracked rotor. Oh yea, tie rods too. So, only having some of the parts and actually following the suggestion to return the steering box for a replacement forced the car off the road and into the garage. Now I'm juggling 3 cars needing maintenance and the priority of repairs. That said, the '72 is taking a back seat so I'll have an update later when we get rolling on it.

 

[Stanglover]

Really apologize for the late responses but it's been a couple weeks for the books! Given the situation with our main car, I took the '72 in to have a go over and possibly see about getting it registered with an inspection and everything went south. The new steering and added use because of the daily driver issues have caused the old parts to fail and it's not just something simple like tie rods. Control arms, spring seats and bushings, brakes (F and R) bushings and a cracked rotor. Oh yea, tie rods too. So, only having some of the parts and actually following the suggestion to return the steering box for a replacement forced the car off the road and into the garage. Now I'm juggling 3 cars needing maintenance and the priority of repairs. That said, the '72 is taking a back seat so I'll have an update later when we get rolling on it.

It comes down to priorities. First things first. You'll "git er dun" when the time is right and budget allows.

 

[California 72]

Well, it's been an adventurous few weeks' here. I alluded to an issue with our daily driver and that was finally removed from our need list. Glad the '72 has been restored to weekend/funday driver. Well? almost. Leme 'splain.

We were unable to resolve the issue with the steering.

As of today, we received 2 replacement boxes and the first was unpainted, had a leak and wasn't packed full of oil for shipping. The leak wasn't the culprit of no oil because the bag the box was packed in was dry except for a little oil from the outside of the box. The fluid that was in it was dark brown and contaminated. The leak was in the form of dark brown fluid with the seal on the top adjustment plate of the gear box. That tells me someone at Lares screwed up.

The second was unpainted again and just for the record, the original box we received was painted a real nice, heavy-duty black. It didn't have a leak but had little to no fluid that was to be there for shipping, it was also contaminated and as brown as, well, I'll keep is G-rated so you get the idea. I also certain it's supposed to be there because the original delivery was chocked full, there were instructions to drain it completely and it was completely clear.

Having been round the block 3 times on this was all we needed. The vendor we used was as accommodating and helpful as the best out there so not a complaint with them. It's Lares we take exception with. They speak of a higher level of commitment to quality than we found. So, we're gonna go with the "Red-Head" this time around and give them a chance. Any opinions of their products would be apprciated. Sticking with the quick-ration version and BAP was good enough to provide us with a core since that was sent back in February. We have nowhere to go but up from here so here's to things coming together.

One final note, in an effort to keep the car from drying out too much I did take it out around the neighborhood, right-turn over steer and all. It never made any improvement and only got worse. Getting ready to order the Red-head now.

 

[Sheriff41]

Here's hopin` the Redhead works out better than the Lares.