the curse of the blown transmissions strikes again

[Don C]

is it the best trans on the planet? ha no not at all, but it was the best i could assemble from the parts i have.

I'm betting that you'll wind up with a much better transmission than you could ever have gotten from a mass marker rebuilder.

Thanks for sharing everything, I know that I've learned a lot from your experience, which is nice. I usually learn the hard way, by getting my hands dirty.

Good luck on your first drive.

 

[Precision Transmission]

I guess I'm a bit late to the party on this C6 build. For any future builders, a good source for heavy duty planets is the E4OD. The diesel truck programs have given us planet carriers stronger than anything installed in any CJ powered vehicle. They fit the C6. As an added bonus, you get a numerically higher 1st and 2nd gear. 3rd remains 1:1. The rear planet is the same size, but one from the right E4OD has more planet pinions. I would also use the matching rear ring rear. The sun gear has a larger diameter front gear. The front planet is different, and the ones from diesel trucks have more pinions. You will also need the E4OD front ring gear, and I like to use the E4OD sunshell as well.

As for Kolene steels, they were developed for use in GM and Ford automatics where conventional steels weren't cutting it. Also, Kolene is the name of the company that developed the process. It is not a coating, but a surface treatment at the molecular level. Over the years I have encountered steels that shed their coating, They turned out not to be genuine Kolene.

By far your best bet would be to choose a package of frictions and steels engineered to work together. Alto makes many such kits. A good trans shop can get these for you. They should be available online, too.

If anyone has questions or comments, please feel free to contact me through the forum.

Don

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

This is a great thread and lots of information. I would be interested in the list of trans. and what the better ones are.

Many years ago I had ambitions of building a 1950 Ford panel truck hot rod. I went out and purchased a 1970 429 out of a N.C. highway patrol car which is a CJ and it had a C-6 with it. The C-6 had a cast iron tail shaft. I was taking with the Ford dealer parts guy and he said that the highway patrol cars and cars built specifically for use as cabs came with the cast iron tail shaft. I don't remember if the CJ cars came with it or not. I also located a Super Duty 429 that comes with a Steel crank but the snout on the SD crank is larger also.

A question would be is this transmission any better than the run of the mill ones?

I also recently purchase a 72 Q code vert with C-6 that had been built but never ran. I am trying to find out what he put in the transmission.

Sounds like you need to do your homework when jumping into one of these. Oh by the way having a top loader 4 speed doesn't eliminate issues either. My X wife broke 3 gear in one and of course the clutches go also. If I were going to switch I would go with one of the 5 speeds they have much closer build tolerances and are able to use the automatic transmission fluid instead of the thick grease in the old ones to fill the gaps.

Great info in this thread for sure.

David

 

[72HCODE]

@Precision Transmission thank you for the additional information.

I looked into the wide ratio and gear changes going into 4 gear and higher planets, as a novice builder i figured best not to go down that road.

Two other things with the kolene steels i got. They came from red alto in the eagle kit i actually took the edge and sanded it and the black coating came off with the shiny steel underneath. plus the steels provided are thin, i felt between the coating coming off (not suppose to be a coating) and them being thinner and possibly warping i dropped the entire set to the side. I didn't like that the red altos had no waffle pattern on the clutches, and i felt this was not the right set for me.

the first raybestos set i got was totally wrong for the C-6 and i returned it.

after that i went to the red altos and didn't like that either for my application.

i went back to the raybestos stage 1s which were thicker and i had raybestos steels, i had to order 2 thicker steels to use on the piston side to raise up the tolerance where i wanted it as it was still too thin and i didn't want to use the original steels which were very thick about 2mm because they were used.

the raybestos stage 1 has the typical waffle pattern on the clutches i wanted.

thanks again for the info

----

@ Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs

"I would be interested in the list of trans. and what the better ones are."

It seems to be a mix of some older parts and newer transmissions.

the case on the older transmissions was designed to hold less clutches for low reverse. so typical for 70-73 it would of held 4 clutches, later transmissions had 5-7 clutches especially if it came from a large truck, issue with the case is the linkage and external cooler plumping it can be so different that you might have to fabricate stuff to make it work in a mustang or other car.

the internal changed, different bearing styles and hubs with longer or stronger spines, the drums kept packing more clutches inside. typical for 70-73 cars was 3 clutches in the forward and direct drums, later they packed 4 and 5, and it is possible with the aftermarket and some tricks to pack 6 or 7 inside.

you can go nuts on any transmission. spending 1000s$ of dollars on upgrades or improved parts for the internals.

I've heard of the steel tail housing but i've never seen on, pretty cool.

" I also located a Super Duty 429 that comes with a Steel crank but the snout on the SD crank is larger also.

A question would be is this transmission any better than the run of the mill ones?"

I would imagine it would be much stronger then a typical trans, usually those have the 4 gear planets inside which are much stronger then the 3 gear.

some of those have totally different tail shafts because of 4wd or for the truck driveshafts.

"I also recently purchase a 72 Q code vert with C-6 that had been built but never ran. I am trying to find out what he put in the transmission."

you would have to crack it open unless he told you specifically. you can't tell anything from the outside except for the 2nd gear band if it has a maker on it.

"Sounds like you need to do your homework when jumping into one of these."

Also you need to know what your goal is. if you build a trans just for the strip it will not be good on the street, dealing with traffic and high mileage.

yup, at least i know more now, i think if i had to do it again i would of pulled the trans inside the car now and took a look at the internals, based on that i would of still needed the other transmissions i got for spare parts but i think i could of built up a stronger transmission just using the case of the trans in the car now.

course i have a feeling when i pull my trans in the car and replace it, it will be a mess inside with mechanical damage.

so for me i'm ok with how it worked out, i just hope it works when i install it

I hope others chime in.

I watched some more videos online with c-6 rebuilds and i can see i made some errors that an experienced trans guy would not have done, little tricks like packing the seals with grease before install, or installing a bushing that is one piece or how to press them in to eliminate a future bushing walk, nothing i can correct at this point but to keep in mind if i do this again in the future.

well you learn from mistakes, but i would like to have some success

 

[72HCODE]

Things done today.

Got car high enough to sneak another trans underneath.

Exhaust removed.

Parking brake removed.

Shift linkage removed.

Kick down removed.

Modulator piping removed.

Speedocable removed.

Trans pan drained and removed, inspected: no metal in pan , tons of clutch material inside. No obvious mechanical damage from a look inside.

Pan put back on.

Driveshaft out.

Engine fan out

Shroud out

Trans cooler lines loosened. Air blown through rad trans cooler to blow out any garbage inside from contaminated type f fluid.

Shock tower braces out.

Got to starter motor and ran into some issues.

Started to remove the flex plate nuts,removed inspection cover.

Called it a day since game of thrones was starting

Some issues I found. Need new belts for engine, problem with starter wire found, need to change trans cooler lines, rear seal leak on 3rd member.

So I will have more to investigate once the new trans goes in.

Next up removing more hardware and parts, dropping trans

Oh found out I seem to have the wrong cooler fittings on new transmission I need to figure that one out.

Arugh.

 

[Elizabeth73]

Good thing you removed the parking brake, it us so frustrating to work the tailend of tranny out and back in. Don't ask how I know -.- lol

Il be watching your updates and wish you the best of luck!

 

[72HCODE]

pulled the dip stick. what a total pain it was.

pulled the starter, starter gear is damaged (awesome) have to inspect flywheel when i get trans off.

popped the bolts for the transmission( 3 loose bolts are now holding the transmission.

popped the bolts for the transmission mounts.

torque convertor nuts all removed.

shield cover bolts removed.

all these bolts took me forever to get out,

started to look at the transmission lines on, not sure how to get them off the transmission yet.

noticed my master cylinder is in fact leaking again after i thought i licked that issue last year.

gave up for the day.

everything that i have fixed 3 times is leaking again.

 

[72HCODE]

old Trans is out.

Pulled Stainless steel tranny cooler lines, ADIOS BASTERDOS

The freaking front sway bar is always in the way of everything i swear.

Had to change some hardware on the new transmission to match the old one and popped out an old guide pin that is not needed for installing in mine.

Stuck waiting on new Trans Cooler mild steel lines.

also my old torque converter was Full of clutch crap i do not want to reuse it. it looked like dark blood coming out when i drained it and was full of junk.

guess i'll work on the rear end leak while i'm waiting on the trans parts.

 

[Elizabeth73]

It is very frustrating getting the old stuff out and finding more problems. I am sure your undercarriage looks much better than mine with all original equipment. I didn't realize how bad my front suspension was until I had to pull my tranny (strange too since the car is hardly bumpy at all when cruising). Sucks to hear about the torque converter, I have a feeling those aren't cheap.

You are almost half way there! I wish you the best of luck and hope you don't run into any problems like I did on the way.

 

[72HCODE]

Fun times.

 

[MotoArts]

I decided to finally separate the C6 from my 460 that had been sitting since Dad built it for his '57 Fairlane. The 460 needs detailed badly and converted from the faux Y-block red paint to the proper blue. When I removed the bellhousing bolts and gave the tailshaft a small pull sideways to "pop" it from the block, I heard a sickening small "crack".

Broke the case at the top right dowel pin. The top loop of the hole now made it a 2 piece case.



May we all gather together in the joys of Ford restoration!! ::beer::

 

[72HCODE]

urg that sucks, the replacement trans had a stuck dowel pin took me forever to wack it out since i have both on my engine already for the shield.

I was measuring my old converter and i noticed some serious mechanical damage to the pump area and the bushing area was distorted like an oval.

i'm trying to narrow down the replacement.

 

[72HCODE]

6/23/15 update.

* new transmission lines have finally arrived.

* torque converter replacement ordered:

"Saturday night special TCI 441600."

Advertised Camshaft Duration:

Stock to 265°

Rear Gear Ratio:

Stock to 3.23

Engine Characteristics:

Smooth Idle, Stock Compression Ratio

Expected RPM Stall Speeds:

Small Block:1600 to 1800

Waiting on torque converter delivery.

will install new lines and put the sway bar back on that should take up some time.

--------------

once the converter comes i should be able to do a final check and install the transmission. then i can clean up and do some work on my 3rd member and hopefully get the drive line reassembled. hoping for a early july fireup and test.

 

[72HCODE]

things done today 06/24/2015

1) Installed new transmission lines(mild steel) through the engine cradle to the rad, hooked up the connections loose for transmission install

2) reinstalled front sway bar

3) removed pinion/yoke from 3rd member( due to leaking seal.)

3a) drained fluid Ahhhhhh that smell!

4) unpressed the yoke from the pinion shaft on 12 ton press.

5) replaced crush sleeve.

6) replaced end seal.

7) reinstalled yoke/pinion assembly in 12 ton press

8) installed new yoke nut

9) torqued nut down over 400ft/pounds until i got 8-14 inch pounds on preload, hit dead on the mark under 15 inch pounds.

(this is a used bearing so the preload is less usually new bearings are 15-29 inch pounds)

10) reinstalled pinion/yoke/nose on 3rd member.

11) retorqued bolts to 40 foot pounds

12) loosened fill plug on 3rd member

13) premixed friction modifier in gear oil.

14) called it a night

-----

up next:

1) need to fill rear end oil

2) need to install new lock nuts on sway bar end links.

3) Waiting on new torque converter and test fit on flywheel.

4) install transmission

5) etc...

 

[72HCODE]

Torque converter has arrived. Yippy

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

With all this transmission talk going on what is a C-6 that was behind a 429 CJ be worth it has the cast iron tail shaft? Have no idea if it needs anything came out of a 1970 North Carolina highway patrol car. It is sitting in the barn beside the 429 CJ engine.

David

 

[72HCODE]

6/26/2015

* Transmission is in.

* cooling lines in, have to check clearance i'm not happy with one fitting.

* trans bolts torqued to engine specs.

* converter sitting free behind flywheel

* modulator line installed.

* cross member in place

**still to do lots of bolt torquing, install flywheel nuts.

 

[72HCODE]

6/27/2015

* major transmission stuff complete.

* checked cooling line clearance looks ok on second look, not 100% happy but there is clearance.

* transmission cross member installed and torqued.

* transmission pan re-torqued to 13 ft/pounds

* cooling lines to radiator tightened.

* flywheel nuts installed and torqued

* inspection cover installed

* starter installed.

* changed pos and starter cable wiring due to fraying to solenoid

* engine fan and shroud installed

------------ Still to do ------------

* install shift linkages, going to need lots of adjustments here.

* possible yoke replacement ( old yoke doesn't look that great)

* take apart rear drums and axles removing backing plates for repair.

* reinstall brakes bleed system again switching to dot 3/4 from dot 5.

* etc never ends.

 

[72HCODE]

6/27/2015 Part II

had a family function to attend.

* installed shift linkage and steering to transmission lock that i never had before, everything works hurray. now i can lock my transmission when the key is out of the ignition. setup and adjusted reverse brake lights as well.

transmission basically done now, except for fluids and obvious test run.

* started to take apart rear drums.

* removed one backing plate and tossed it in the media blaster.

* repaired media blaster GURRRR.

Started pouring rain couldn't setup MIG for welding.

discovered need to replace parking brake cables .

need new axle seals for backing plates.

 

[72HCODE]

6/28/2015

* welded one backing plate up, media blasted and repainted.

Have one more and waiting on new parts to button up the read end.