Timing light advance measurement doesn't stop

[tony-muscle]

Tony, Do I see the problem? in this pic, the weights are under the slot/cam plate. Is this correct now? If the weights are not located properly you'll never get it to time.

Also the weights need to be the same from the info I have from Cardone.

I'm not the expert here, but from my own findings, your heavy spring is under tension, mine is just slightly loose as this controls the last bit of the curve to 3000 rpm.

Please double check and let us know. Also, I don't know what voltage rating that MSD coil is compared to the Pertronix II coil. Might be worth checking. It all needs to work together.

I am not understanding what you mean that the weights are under the slot/cam plate. Can you please explain?

I just realized that this picture was taken before the springs were replaced so this is how it was not how it is. However, the location of the weights has not changed. I only replaced the springs and straighten the tab where the stretched spring is in the picture (right side of pictures).

 Tony, it may just be that picture is out of date, but look at mine. In your pic, the weights are under the slot/cam plate, the weights should be within the cam part of that plate. As you say though, you realized this is not the picture you probably meant to post.

This latest pic is just to shows where the cam weights locate. I'm sure you know this already, but just to save any confusion.

Geoff.

I see, thanks. I didn't pay attention to this while putting it back together but I assume that if the slot plate would have been above the weights the breaker plate would have sit too high. Right now you can turn the distributor in the advance direction until it stops and it springs back when released so I assume it will be okay. Still that won't explain why the measure advanced is so high, which I think it is the timing light. Tonight I will have time to check and fine tune.

 

[Stanglover]

I am not understanding what you mean that the weights are under the slot/cam plate. Can you please explain?

I just realized that this picture was taken before the springs were replaced so this is how it was not how it is. However, the location of the weights has not changed. I only replaced the springs and straighten the tab where the stretched spring is in the picture (right side of pictures).

 Tony, it may just be that picture is out of date, but look at mine. In your pic, the weights are under the slot/cam plate, the weights should be within the cam part of that plate. As you say though, you realized this is not the picture you probably meant to post.

This latest pic is just to shows where the cam weights locate. I'm sure you know this already, but just to save any confusion.

Geoff.

I see, thanks. I didn't pay attention to this while putting it back together but I assume that if the slot plate would have been above the weights the breaker plate would have sit too high. Right now you can turn the distributor in the advance direction until it stops and it springs back when released so I assume it will be okay. Still that won't explain why the measure advanced is so high, which I think it is the timing light. Tonight I will have time to check and fine tune.

 Tony, I was positive you had this right all along, but stranger things have happened and leaves us wondering why! No offence meant.

 Perhaps time to ditch the timing light for a new one. The one I bought is digital and adjustable yet not too expensive. Does the job. Another tip I can offer is to make sure the damper markings are clean and clearly marked. Use a fine tipped white paint marker on the zero line. If the mark is too wide, you'll not be as accurate. Again from my own finding out the hard way.

All the best with it

Geoff.

 

[tony-muscle]

Reading more about it I figured that my Innova timing light is not compatible with CDI ignition. Therefore, as expected the reading is not accurate. I run it today up to 6,200 rpm and it was amazing. Never seen the nose of the car so high.

 

[Stanglover]

Reading more about it I figured that my Innova timing light is not compatible with CDI ignition. Therefore, as expected the reading is not accurate. I run it today up to 6,200 rpm and it was amazing. Never seen the nose of the car so high.

 That's awesome Tony, glad it turned out to be just your timing light and not a big boo-boo putting the dizzy together.

 I take it there was no spark rattle all the way up under load? If that was the case, job done!

Geoff.

 

[tony-muscle]

I am purchasing the Proform 67414 timing light. Of all the multi-spark compatible timing lights listed this was the one with decent balance between reviews and cost. The ones with best reviews were really expensive like the MSD.

Let's see how it works. I will be reporting soon.

 

[Stanglover]

I am purchasing the Proform 67414 timing light. Of all the multi-spark compatible timing lights listed this was the one with decent balance between reviews and cost. The ones with best reviews were really expensive like the MSD.

Let's see how it works. I will be reporting soon.

 Sounds good!

 

[Stanglover]

Tony, I looked that timing light up out of curiosity and I hate to say this, but the reviews are not too good for that one. Your choice, but I would pass on that one. It does claim to be CDI compatible, but it is not adjustable nor does it have a tach from what I saw online. It's cheap and made in China. (probably like all of them!)

To be totally honest, I am not familiar with CDI multi-spark ignition. Does that come from the MSD coil? I am familiar with my Pertronix Ignitor II and coil. While it produces around 40000 volts, I don't believe it is multi-spark. I've always said when it come to electronic stuff, I'm lost and that's my disclaimer!

My timing light is an Innova 3568a. It can be used on ALL 12v negative ground systems, either points or ALL electronic ignitions. It is fully adjustable, with a good tach and digital display. If this is what you had, perhaps it was just a faulty timing light. The first one of these I bought was and the dealer replaced it. No problem with the one I have now.

Geoff.

 

[tony-muscle]

Tony, I looked that timing light up out of curiosity and I hate to say this, but the reviews are not too good for that one. Your choice, but I would pass on that one. It does claim to be CDI compatible, but it is not adjustable nor does it have a tach from what I saw online. It's cheap and made in China. (probably like all of them!)

To be totally honest, I am not familiar with CDI multi-spark ignition. Does that come from the MSD coil? I am familiar with my Pertronix Ignitor II and coil. While it produces around 40000 volts, I don't believe it is multi-spark. I've always said when it come to electronic stuff, I'm lost and that's my disclaimer!

My timing light is an Innova 3568a. It can be used on ALL 12v negative ground systems, either points or ALL electronic ignitions. It is fully adjustable, with a good tach and digital display. If this is what you had, perhaps it was just a faulty timing light. The first one of these I bought was and the dealer replaced it. No problem with the one I have now.

Geoff.

The reviews are not good and I agree. The reviews for all the CDI compatibles were not good, except for the $150+ ones. I guess I am just trying it and if it doesnt work I will send it back.

The CDI comes from a Stree Fire CDI box I have. The Ignitor II in the distributor acts as a magnetic trigger for the CDI box.

 

[Stanglover]

Tony, I looked that timing light up out of curiosity and I hate to say this, but the reviews are not too good for that one. Your choice, but I would pass on that one. It does claim to be CDI compatible, but it is not adjustable nor does it have a tach from what I saw online. It's cheap and made in China. (probably like all of them!)

To be totally honest, I am not familiar with CDI multi-spark ignition. Does that come from the MSD coil? I am familiar with my Pertronix Ignitor II and coil. While it produces around 40000 volts, I don't believe it is multi-spark. I've always said when it come to electronic stuff, I'm lost and that's my disclaimer!

My timing light is an Innova 3568a. It can be used on ALL 12v negative ground systems, either points or ALL electronic ignitions. It is fully adjustable, with a good tach and digital display. If this is what you had, perhaps it was just a faulty timing light. The first one of these I bought was and the dealer replaced it. No problem with the one I have now.

Geoff.

The reviews are not good and I agree. The reviews for all the CDI compatibles were not good, except for the $150+ ones. I guess I am just trying it and if it doesnt work I will send it back.

The CDI comes from a Stree Fire CDI box I have. The Ignitor II in the distributor acts as a magnetic trigger for the CDI box.

 CDI box. Thanks for enlightening me Tony. As my motor is basically stock, I don't really know what the advantage would be to run a CDI box. My engine pulls strong through 5500 on the Pertronix II set-up and that's plenty good enough for me.

Again, I learn every day! ( I should add that as my signature!)

Geoff.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I am given to believe that an old inductive light like the craftsman light I have been using for 35 years will work fine. Just find an old fart and borrow his timing light!

 

[tony-muscle]

Update:

After reading more and more about timing lights and multiple spark ignition i started thinking that something was fishy with my system. I was seeing advance up to 50 and I started thinking that this could not only be due to a timing light error. From what I was reading I should get a fluctuation of a few degrees but not off by that much. Then I tested at above 3,000 rpm when the multiple sparks are supposed to be phased out and it should transition to a single spark. The advance was still too much. After some tweaking it was down to 40+ advance. Something was wrong.... 

I decided to get my old protractor to measure how much I can move the distributor rotor. I was definitely moving it more than 10 degrees (L10 is supposed to be 10 degrees of distributor advance which is 20 at the crank). That was a sign that something was not right. I disassembled the distributor to discover that I had made a mistake. When putting the distributor together I had misplaced the shaft and slot by 180 degrees :shootself: . That said, my mechanical advance was 30 instead of 20. The L15 slot was on the side of the stop pin rather than the L10. That explained some of the problem. I also discovered that the shaft has some play, which together with the multiple spark, it was certainly causing my timing light to show 50 advance. I believe now that my timing light was not that off. I have not started it yet since while putting it together, off course!!, I lost the e-clip that holds the vacuum advance lever.

 

[Don C]

Yeah, those little clips

I've torn distributors apart looking for them, without luck. Hate to think about even a small part floating around loose. I have a tin box full of miscellaneous carburetor parts, including a lot of the clips.

Glad you're getting the problem narrowed down. It happens frequently that small things add up to make a big problem.

 

[tony-muscle]

I got the last 3 clips they had at NAPA. I lost 2 of those, but I made the last one work.

Now I am getting the 10 degrees of mechanical advance topping at 35. However, I am getting a timing fluctuation at idle that corresponds with RPM fluctuations in about 2-3 second cycles. Like I said before, my distributor has a rotational play which is probably causing this fluctuations. Replacing the distributor is one of the plans for the winter.

 

[c9zx]

"I am getting a timing fluctuation at idle that corresponds with RPM fluctuations in about 2-3 second cycles. "  It sounds like the mechanical advance is already active at idle speed. Chuck

 

[Stanglover]

Update:

After reading more and more about timing lights and multiple spark ignition i started thinking that something was fishy with my system. I was seeing advance up to 50 and I started thinking that this could not only be due to a timing light error. From what I was reading I should get a fluctuation of a few degrees but not off by that much. Then I tested at above 3,000 rpm when the multiple sparks are supposed to be phased out and it should transition to a single spark. The advance was still too much. After some tweaking it was down to 40+ advance. Something was wrong.... 

I decided to get my old protractor to measure how much I can move the distributor rotor. I was definitely moving it more than 10 degrees (L10 is supposed to be 10 degrees of distributor advance which is 20 at the crank). That was a sign that something was not right. I disassembled the distributor to discover that I had made a mistake. When putting the distributor together I had misplaced the shaft and slot by 180 degrees :shootself: . That said, my mechanical advance was 30 instead of 20. The L15 slot was on the side of the stop pin rather than the L10. That explained some of the problem. I also discovered that the shaft has some play, which together with the multiple spark, it was certainly causing my timing light to show 50 advance. I believe now that my timing light was not that off. I have not started it yet since while putting it together, off course!!, I lost the e-clip that holds the vacuum advance lever.

 Glad you are figuring it all out and getting a handle on it. I know your pain man! been there and I can speak from my own experience. It took me several years of frustration, taking the car to so-called "professionals" with distributor machines and the like to finally do it myself and get the result I needed for my engine.

The shaft bushing can be replaced or get a reman original Motorcraft from Cardone. The Cardone Select NEW Motorcraft look-alike, is okay quality, but metric threads. The slot plate will need to be changed for the L10 slot though.

Those "e" clips are a pain!! I bought 10 from a local supplier and lost half of them before I was done.

 As I mentioned before the final curve will be achieved with the springs you select and the way you set them up and that takes time. (Easier if you know someone with a dizzy machine I'm thinking.)

Geoff.

 

[tony-muscle]

"I am getting a timing fluctuation at idle that corresponds with RPM fluctuations in about 2-3 second cycles. "  It sounds like the mechanical advance is already active at idle speed. Chuck

Good point. Could be. I am not too concerned since I will be driving the car just a few weeks before the first snow. Then over the winter replacing the distributor is one of the projects so I will spend the time tuning once replaced.

I want to replace it with one with magnetic pickup. The Cardone has the large cap that won't fit under the filter. I can't seem to find a Cardone with a small cap. In the past I had a Cardone with large cap and couldn't find a small cap that would fit.

 

[73pony]

"I am getting a timing fluctuation at idle that corresponds with RPM fluctuations in about 2-3 second cycles. "  It sounds like the mechanical advance is already active at idle speed. Chuck

Good point. Could be. I am not too concerned since I will be driving the car just a few weeks before the first snow. Then over the winter replacing the distributor is one of the projects so I will spend the time tuning once replaced.

I want to replace it with one with magnetic pickup. The Cardone has the large cap that won't fit under the filter. I can't seem to find a Cardone with a small cap. In the past I had a Cardone with large cap and couldn't find a small cap that would fit.

if you want to upgrade to a Duraspark. These guys do a really nice job.

http://performancedistributors.com/product/ford-duraspark-distributors/

 

[tony-muscle]

"I am getting a timing fluctuation at idle that corresponds with RPM fluctuations in about 2-3 second cycles. "  It sounds like the mechanical advance is already active at idle speed. Chuck

Good point. Could be. I am not too concerned since I will be driving the car just a few weeks before the first snow. Then over the winter replacing the distributor is one of the projects so I will spend the time tuning once replaced.

I want to replace it with one with magnetic pickup. The Cardone has the large cap that won't fit under the filter. I can't seem to find a Cardone with a small cap. In the past I had a Cardone with large cap and couldn't find a small cap that would fit.

if you want to upgrade to a Duraspark. These guys do a really nice job.

http://performancedistributors.com/product/ford-duraspark-distributors/

Thanks. I have seen them, but they are too expensive in my opinion. I can get a Duraspark distributor and tweak it.

 

[Stanglover]

IF you choose to go with a new or reman, distributor, Rock Auto list the Cardone reman part # as 302813 for 351 CLEVELAND.  Also the Cardone Select part # 842813 for CLEVELAND. I don't know what the US prices is as I get it in Canadian dollars. They are complete Dizzy's with stock small caps. Personally, I'd go for the reman. Cardone claim that the Select version is engineered better than original, so your choice. Threads are metric on this one though.

As for DuraSpark, yes that would be where I'd go if and when I need to replace my existing dist.

Geoff.

 

[tony-muscle]

IF you choose to go with a new or reman, distributor, Rock Auto list the Cardone reman part # as 302813 for 351 CLEVELAND.  Also the Cardone Select part # 842813 for CLEVELAND. I don't know what the US prices is as I get it in Canadian dollars. They are complete Dizzy's with stock small caps. Personally, I'd go for the reman. Cardone claim that the Select version is engineered better than original, so your choice. Threads are metric on this one though.

As for DuraSpark, yes that would be where I'd go if and when I need to replace my existing dist.

Geoff.

Thanks. The issue is that those are points type. I would be looking into a magnetic trigger type. The magnetics I can only find with big caps from Cardone.