To 4v your '72 Cleveland or not to 4v, that's the question.

[California 72]

I did wish to add something in defense of my machinists advice. I concede to the appearance of overthinking things. Knowing him for this long, 53 years, he sort of rememberers a time when we could be hard on our cars. I swear this happened while at the drag strip about 41-42 years ago he was in the bleach box with his ‘67 testing a design strop. Basically it was a 4V Cleveland beater-motor for the test and while heating the tires, the car sounded like nothing we had ever heard before. I mean that motor was singing a high pitched tune that was beautiful. Tom swore he didn’t over rev but it definitely didn’t sound like an over rev would. That kinda cartoonish vision we’ve all seen.
Anyhow, from what I remember, when they pulled telemetry at the shop, that motor was somewhere near or north of 10,000 while in the box.
He tore the motor down and it showed no signs of stress at all.
Anyhow, it was also driven home from the track, about 100 miles with no issues.
The point is, I can appreciate and welcome any overthinking that keeps me from spending unnecessary money.
I’ve always remembered that day and the friends that were there also commented about that motor.
My mind may be fuzzy on a couple things but that’s what I remember.
One thing of note, with a heavy caveat that I’m not name dropping here. But many of us might be using the pistons they manufacture and if anyone here raced 5.0 or mountain motor, ,you’ve maybe dealt with him and Ron there.

 

[Hemikiller]

If you're looking for max bang for the buck, here's what I suggest

Heads - throw the factory multigroove valves, retainers and keepers in the trash. Have your guy test the factory springs, if they're within spec, then hand onto them. Get a new set of one piece Ferrea, Manley or whateverbrandhelikes valve and have him do the work he says they'll need. Any cam that you're looking at will likely only need a single spring with a damper, which run around $100/set. Regardless of what you decide, they all need to be checked for installed

Talk to one of the three companies I mentioned above, or a cam company your guy trusts. Flat tappet cams these days are like playing russian roulette, so he'd better be ready to stand behind one if that's the route you go. Pretty much anyone who runs a 4V engine will tell you you need a split pattern cam with more exhaust duration.

As for the short block, hopefully you can get away with a set of rings, bearings and a polish and hone. Have him check the condition of the lifter bores, and the cam bearings. Every 351C I've had needed cam bearings. At 50 years old, they're simply failing. The lifter bores can wear, leading to oiling issues.

 

[California 72]

Hemikiller, Thank you. The block is probably going to need a much more extensive go-over than I planned. The whole 73,000 original miles thought was blown out of the water after the discovery and the .030 over scenario played out. I was really ticked last night over that since it would have made my approach to buying the car much different.
The biggest chafe is; when was it done? Then that's followed by a hearty wtf and the question of, exactly how far did they take it?
I'd like to believe they addressed a bunch of stuff at the same time, but that thought doesn't hold much water, and the timing chain is a strong example of maybe cutting corners or the thing was beat to hell by the previous owner. Either way, it would be asinine if they had the block at the shop being machined and had not addressed the cam bearings. The guesstimated date for that would be around 2006 so, it's only about 30,000 miles since. Once the motor is out and the pan is off, there's where I'll understand more. Yet, there have been some "little nuances" I've picked up on that make all kinds of sense now.

The newest questions are now... Okay, so being it's a rebuilt motor, did they replace the cam too with a performance type? Did they add an aftermarket 4V and just stripped it off before listing?

I hope the story didn't sound like I was snarkey or taking any offense to what you posted. I probably took the long way to explain it too, but that was really something else to have witnessed. I'll say, until my dying day, the only reason that motor didn't grenade in the bleach box was for the fact that even as a beater test motor, the approach was top notch and very well thought out.

As far as the work, other than the machine shop locally here, my advice is coming in from St. Charles IL so I'm the one performing the manual stuff here and why I had the slight over-reaction to things yesterday. More work was not something I was happy to see. Doohhh!!!!

 

[Bill Kanode]

Hemikiller, thanks again, and agin, and again. I greatly appreciate your insights as you seem to be there with some decent approaches.

I have to admit, it wasn't the bind so much as floating a valve should I "push that envelope" mistakenly or even goofing around a bit. After all, while it's great to know for certain what's under the hood when a kid pulls up next to you, it should be "exercised" once in a while, right?

I also just learned the engine has been gone over already. I just finished cleaning them and when I took a pic of the piston to post (below) the enlarged image on my computer showed they're already .030 over. The arrow kinda threw me as being aftermarket but I wasn't jumping past the stock conclusion. Too much exercise to go much further.

Anyhow, this new flubistering development disorder I'm having is making me reconniption this whole project. In a way, if I need to take this much further than I've already planned, it's gonna be a while before the street and the car meet again. It's not like we don't already have a grotesque amount of funds needing to be invest in repairs to our 3-year-old house! Son of a *%^&ing @#%$&!! (slight knee-jerk over reaction again ) I'll come back into orbit sooner or later, I guess. Just really wasn't expecting this.

Edit: Well? the motor will be out and while it's hanging on the stand, might as well do whatever is needed. Given the rarity of our cars not going away any time soon, this is a bit more of an investment than it would have been back in the '70's and early '80's.
If was the same back then, I'd still have my '66 notch back and '71 Cougar XR-7



View attachment 92258

I rebuilt my 351C engine with the flat top pistons in my H code 1971 fastback but I did spring for an Edelbrock 4V manifold and a dual inlet vacuum secondary Holley carburetor. This way I can let the engine determine how much CFM it will take at any given RPM if I choose the right secondary vacuum spring. I think double pump carbs are a waste of good money, gas and performance for street cars. What will the CR be with the flat top pistons and 2V heads. Thx, Bill

 

[California 72]

Okay. A complete left turn has brought me to the doorstep of considering a hydraulic roller cam setup. Given the components now needed for the rebuild, it's not that much a stretch more so, what numbers have ya'll used with lift and duration to produce a fun and modest or slight uptick over stock with the 4V Cleveland?

I've seen some posts about carb and while I haven't arrived there yet, double pumper is out since I'm running a FMX and while I ran a 750 DP atop a 351W and C4 on my '66, I'll stay more modest in the 650 range but I'm weeks if not months from that point. Still, not too early to think.

 

[Barrysmach1]

Okay. A complete left turn has brought me to the doorstep of considering a hydraulic roller cam setup. Given the components now needed for the rebuild, it's not that much a stretch more so, what numbers have ya'll used with lift and duration to produce a fun and modest or slight uptick over stock with the 4V Cleveland?

I've seen some posts about carb and while I haven't arrived there yet, double pumper is out since I'm running a FMX and while I ran a 750 DP atop a 351W and C4 on my '66, I'll stay more modest in the 650 range but I'm weeks if not months from that point. Still, not too early to think.

If you go roller cam which is a great idea may consider a custom from someone such as Ed Curtis or Brent Lykins both whom understand what a Cleveland with iron 4V heads require

 

[Zach]

If you go roller cam which is a great idea may consider a custom from someone such as Ed Curtis or Brent Lykins both whom understand what a Cleveland with iron 4V heads require

+1 on Brent, he’s been very helpful with all my questions I’ve asked and responds quickly. Although he did get me hooked on chi 3v heads and a custom grind roller.

 

[California 72]

That's a valid point about Double Pump carbs. While my original and first use of them wasn't bad in the performance side of things, (the '66 mentioned above) if there had been a Top Loader 4spd. in the mix, it would have been more noticeable. Street trim, no headers, 60' series rubber on 4 corners, still able to kick out 13.210 seconds in the 1/4 mile
Then again, gas was $0.73 a gallon back then so who was worried about fuel mileage. Fast forward 44 years and, well(?) still no Top Loader 4spd. and 93 no-ethanol gas is $4.79 a gallon so, veering away from the double pumper. Definitely not looking at any time spent at the 1/4 mile so, I may be running a 500cfm 2V if it's still in my garage. The big concern is the 4V manifold I have is a stock, cast iron spread bore. Reading about how difficult it is to find those, may play a bigger role with the afore mentioned 2V use.
We'll see what comes our way since, this being the cars disassembly status as of tonight, a long way to go. .

 

[California 72]

As we continue to make progress with the heads change over, I addressed the issue with the oil pan condition. After getting the motor disassembled, this is definitely turning into quite the journey of discovery. As nothing is or should be simple with any project, the condition of the pan was a bit worse than I could make out while trying not to fall off the creeper under the car.

The first pic is when jack meets pan. It didn't go well for pan.


Then, after examining the inside, noticed a pile of built-up debris and then; after running my finger thru the pile, it revealed something you never want to see in the bottom of any engine.
Yes, that's a pile of copper shavings so, the one part of the motor I didn't wish to disturb, after learning it was a rebuild with the bore going to 0.030 over, was the rotating assembly.
I figured, the rebuild was most likely performed in the last 20,000 miles or so. That's a guess since the original paperwork provided by the second owner listed the car as "53,000 original miles" and the guy I bought it from exclaimed, it had 71,000 but as it would have it, lied.
Anyhow, this meant the rod and main bearings all needed to be examined.
What I found was a bit more wear than 20,000 miles should have produced, the motor was also very sloppily reassembled since bolt and nut removal was very inconsistent with regards to effort and much of the wear was located in the center 4 cylinder bearing surfaces, the same area where the nuts and bolts of things took just a little effort when compared to the others.
In the end, the copper shavings didn't match the wear so the thought was it was never cleaned properly during the rebuild or the guy I bought this from threw a can of engine additive to give a false sense of soundness.
Either way, this means we may not be doing just the light refresh with the new 4V heads after all.
On a good note, after deciding to go to a hydraulic roller valve train, the new roller rockers from Scorpion arrived today! The crank is headed for a polish, and measure so, the fun begins anew!