Trying hard to not make this political

[c9zx]

For those who have EVs, what happens to the range when you turn on the heater and heated seats? How much does it change the range if it is on for one hour? Chuck

 

[71ProjectJunk]

4 hours ago, MikeGriese said:

I don't understand why people say there isn't the infrastructure for EVs.  There are literally billions of electrical outlets around.  Quick chargers aren't as prolific as gas stations (yet), but everyone has an outlet at home they can do the majority of their recharging from.  Most people don't outdrive an EV's range in a day, so for daily driving, recharging isn't a big deal.  Quick chargers are much cheaper and faster to install than a gas station, and can be located pretty much anywhere a car can park.  If most people recharge at night, which is off peak for power generation (more capacity available than demand), the generation infrastructure can keep up as offpeak demand rises.

These arguments are similar to gasoline distribution 110 years ago.  A big difference this time around is that most utility companies have to work with public utility commissions - there is the opportunity for far more public input into solutions than there ever was with oil companies. 

Oh - and for an interesting description about what happened last year in Texas can be found here:

Because you cannot charge the car on the road with a 110 outlet, it takes 8-12 hours to charge. I live in Texas, to go almost anywhere is a decent drive. Yes, to go to the corner store, which for me is a 30 mile drive, I could just charge it off a 110 in the house, but if you really want to go anywhere, like a good mall, I have to drive to Dallas which is 150 miles one way. Now, what happens if you live in a high rise, or an apartment complex, how do you charge your car? 

Everyone I know that has an EV has a ICE car too. If they want to go on a trip they take their ICE vehicle. Now, there are plenty of people that have just one ICE vehicle, they do not need another car for long trips. When I was living in Miami, Florida a buddy of mine who had a Tesla Model S, and loved the thing, decided to go to Orlando in his Tesla. When he came back he told me that he will never again attempt that. He barely made it there, and then could not find a charger and he said that he stress he went trough was not worth it. This was a couple of years ago, so I am sure the charging situation has changed, but he was going from one major city to another major city, where there are chargers, not from the middle of nowhere were I live to the middle of nowhere else. 

 

[MikeGriese]

Substitute "horse" for ICE and "car" for EV.  These problems will get solved.  And just like way back when, nobody's gonna shoot your horse and make you drive a car.

 

[71ProjectJunk]

Substitute "horse" for ICE and "car" for EV.  These problems will get solved.  And just like way back when, nobody's gonna shoot your horse and make you drive a car.

        I agree that the issues with the EV's will get solved eventually, I can even agree that they will eventually end up being a good thing, like emissions controls, CAFE standards, and safety standards. The problem is that they are going to shove them down your throat whether or not the issues are solved, and whether or not you want one, and all this will bring unintended consequences. Just like the drive for emission controls, CAFE standards, and safety standards in the late 60's early 70's, which nearly killed the USA auto industry, and from which the USA auto industry never recovered.

        Have you tried to drive a horse on a highway? LOL, or in the middle of the city? No one shot your horse, but for the most part you cannot drive your horse and buggy on public streets, and yes I am aware of the Amish, I used to live close to them, and yes they could use their horses and buggies in the rural parts where they lived, but that was about it. 

 

[detritusmaximus]

You have good points about the readiness of infrastructure. But it seems like we are always creating/building products and then we play catchup to support it. 

Supply follows demand. If you live in a community that is 10 years or more old, there isn't much drive to put in charging stations. But in the new construction, it's becoming more important. Office buildings/hotels are installing them and a lot of new apartment/condo construction is including the stations because prospective tenants are asking for it.

It's rapidly becoming a necessary amenity. 

Of course, much of this is happening in more densely populated areas. 

 

[kevken1959]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:46 PM, 71ProjectJunk said:

Here is a video of what it's like to drive a classic car on a racetrack, you will NEVER experience this on an electric appliance, enjoy:

That video is so cool! Hard to believe anything like the Cobra was made in 1963. 

 

[vintageman]

I honestly have been trying to avoid posting to this thread but eventually decided to throw my two cents in. Before I begin, if I hurt some feelings or seem to have a different point of view, they are, after all, my point of view and at my age, I am going to stay with my point of view. I think the electric cars can be a good thing but are being somewhat forced upon us. Bear in mind, I would love to have one of the cars you see on the futuristic movies zipping down the highway and so forth but I don't want and will not be told that is my only option for the future in the United States. I spent 27 years of my life, fought in multiple combat zones, and supported my government leaders without question during that time and never voiced my opinions because it was detrimental to my leaders. I retired from the military in 2016 and have since found that my normal 23% monthly taxes paid on a normal paycheck have since increased on my military retirement is almost 35% because I owe almost $8,000 each year when I file my taxes and it is not on due to my normal day to day job, it is just on my military retirement. After I retired (close to the end of the year 2016) and became 100% disabled due to military service, I found that I had to get another full time job just to pay these extensive taxes on my military retirement (both federal and state) to survive. Now with these electric car pushes, retirees and those who are not able to afford better luxuries in life will be facing even more hardships. I won't even get into the fact that I have been paying into social security since I was 12 years old and who knows if it will be available when I get to that age to collect it. My daughter and her husband do not have employment that provides medical insurance and when they applied for the "affordable care act" insurance, they were told, that they do not make enough to qualify for the lower insurance payments. Really???? So guess who is paying for their insurance? I am sick of where my country has gone in the last 15 years or so and have no idea what the future holds for us older retirees. This is the land of the free and home of the brave and we should have the right to decide if we are going to drive gas or electric cars and for what ever we choose, there should be an affordable option and not one that everyone needs to have an electrician come by their house and install a 240v outlet, upgrade their existing circuit breaker and electrical system and not have their electric bill double each month. Maybe I am well off base but I don't think so and if you read through this rant, I appreciate it and for those that disagree with me, you have the right to your opinion because I am an adult and not a 12 year old kid. Your opinions are your opinions and mine are mine. I really hope I didn't hurt feelings but in the end, a person's personal opinion is the one that counts, not someone on the internet. I do hope that the future gets more advanced and is more evenly proportioned all.  Sorry for the rant. 

Tom

 

[kevken1959]

I honestly have been trying to avoid posting to this thread but eventually decided to throw my two cents in. Before I begin, if I hurt some feelings or seem to have a different point of view, they are, after all, my point of view and at my age, I am going to stay with my point of view. I think the electric cars can be a good thing but are being somewhat forced upon us. Bear in mind, I would love to have one of the cars you see on the futuristic movies zipping down the highway and so forth but I don't want and will not be told that is my only option for the future in the United States. I spent 27 years of my life, fought in multiple combat zones, and supported my government leaders without question during that time and never voiced my opinions because it was detrimental to my leaders. I retired from the military in 2016 and have since found that my normal 23% monthly taxes paid on a normal paycheck have since increased on my military retirement is almost 35% because I owe almost $8,000 each year when I file my taxes and it is not on due to my normal day to day job, it is just on my military retirement. After I retired (close to the end of the year 2016) and became 100% disabled due to military service, I found that I had to get another full time job just to pay these extensive taxes on my military retirement (both federal and state) to survive. Now with these electric car pushes, retirees and those who are not able to afford better luxuries in life will be facing even more hardships. I won't even get into the fact that I have been paying into social security since I was 12 years old and who knows if it will be available when I get to that age to collect it. My daughter and her husband do not have employment that provides medical insurance and when they applied for the "affordable care act" insurance, they were told, that they do not make enough to qualify for the lower insurance payments. Really???? So guess who is paying for their insurance? I am sick of where my country has gone in the last 15 years or so and have no idea what the future holds for us older retirees. This is the land of the free and home of the brave and we should have the right to decide if we are going to drive gas or electric cars and for what ever we choose, there should be an affordable option and not one that everyone needs to have an electrician come by their house and install a 240v outlet, upgrade their existing circuit breaker and electrical system and not have their electric bill double each month. Maybe I am well off base but I don't think so and if you read through this rant, I appreciate it and for those that disagree with me, you have the right to your opinion because I am an adult and not a 12 year old kid. Your opinions are your opinions and mine are mine. I really hope I didn't hurt feelings but in the end, a person's personal opinion is the one that counts, not someone on the internet. I do hope that the future gets more advanced and is more evenly proportioned all.  Sorry for the rant. 

Tom

Thanks for your reply and your service to our country, Tom! All of you fine patriots deserve far more than what you have gotten back from this country and I feel and appreciate your frustration with where this country has been going. I don't think you or I or anyone on this site has the power to change this steam-roller that is moving over our cars and our country, but at least we can all rest easy knowing that people like you are part of our hobby and obsession with 71-73 Mustangs! 

 

[71ProjectJunk]

I honestly have been trying to avoid posting to this thread but eventually decided to throw my two cents in. Before I begin, if I hurt some feelings or seem to have a different point of view, they are, after all, my point of view and at my age, I am going to stay with my point of view. I think the electric cars can be a good thing but are being somewhat forced upon us. Bear in mind, I would love to have one of the cars you see on the futuristic movies zipping down the highway and so forth but I don't want and will not be told that is my only option for the future in the United States. I spent 27 years of my life, fought in multiple combat zones, and supported my government leaders without question during that time and never voiced my opinions because it was detrimental to my leaders. I retired from the military in 2016 and have since found that my normal 23% monthly taxes paid on a normal paycheck have since increased on my military retirement is almost 35% because I owe almost $8,000 each year when I file my taxes and it is not on due to my normal day to day job, it is just on my military retirement. After I retired (close to the end of the year 2016) and became 100% disabled due to military service, I found that I had to get another full time job just to pay these extensive taxes on my military retirement (both federal and state) to survive. Now with these electric car pushes, retirees and those who are not able to afford better luxuries in life will be facing even more hardships. I won't even get into the fact that I have been paying into social security since I was 12 years old and who knows if it will be available when I get to that age to collect it. My daughter and her husband do not have employment that provides medical insurance and when they applied for the "affordable care act" insurance, they were told, that they do not make enough to qualify for the lower insurance payments. Really???? So guess who is paying for their insurance? I am sick of where my country has gone in the last 15 years or so and have no idea what the future holds for us older retirees. This is the land of the free and home of the brave and we should have the right to decide if we are going to drive gas or electric cars and for what ever we choose, there should be an affordable option and not one that everyone needs to have an electrician come by their house and install a 240v outlet, upgrade their existing circuit breaker and electrical system and not have their electric bill double each month. Maybe I am well off base but I don't think so and if you read through this rant, I appreciate it and for those that disagree with me, you have the right to your opinion because I am an adult and not a 12 year old kid. Your opinions are your opinions and mine are mine. I really hope I didn't hurt feelings but in the end, a person's personal opinion is the one that counts, not someone on the internet. I do hope that the future gets more advanced and is more evenly proportioned all.  Sorry for the rant. 

Tom

Tom,

     Thank you for your service. I wish that I could express in words the love that I have for current and former military personnel. Both my grandfathers served in WWII, and one in them also served in Korea, and my father did 2 combat tours in Vietnam. I grew up in a "broken" household because of my fathers PTSD, which was never officially diagnosed, but which we all knew he had. My father also eventually ended up 100% disabled after he retired because of his service. The sacrifice our veterans have given to this country, and to the world as a whole, can never be repaid. The shame that I feel for the way our government has treated you and other military personnel cannot be expressed. I am truly sorry for the issues that you and yours are going through, because of the tax burden that has been imposed on the retirement you earned. Veterans pensions should be sacred, and if they were to be taxed at all, it should be at a lower rate than regular income. I feel your pain for the direction that this country, that you fought for, is going in. I too feel that the the direction that this country is going in is not a good thing, you are not alone.

It is difficult to understand how much veterans go through, unless you are one, or you are a direct family member of one. Not only is the veteran affected, but all his family is too. Lots of admiration and respect for the sacrifices given, and lots of love for you and yours. 

 

[Don C]

I've tried to stay out of this, because there is no way I can avoid not getting somewhat political.

This is just a guess, based on my own experiences of living in many different houses in my lifetime, as well as helping others work on their homes. The majority of homes have 100-amp services and are likely not suitable candidates for installing high current electric vehicle chargers. There are still homes out there that have only 60-amp services. Upgrading these homes require completely new services, including the wiring from the utility's transformers to their meters. For most homeowners this will be somewhat expensive, especially if they live in a neighborhood that has all underground services. Even for those who are not electricians, but have the knowledge and skills, this can be difficult, requiring building plans and permits. Utilities will not connect to a new service until they have been inspected.

It appears that now that we have a need for more electricity, that is not powered by fossil fuel, that nuclear fusion powered plants are getting closer to reality. So, I don't think that power supply is going to be an issue but transporting that extra power, especially through established neighborhoods and commercial districts, may require expensive infrastructure upgrades.

As a transportation professional I have attended many meetings with politicians and appointees. There are politicians and officials out there that believe we should all ride on public transportation, and automobiles should only be available for those providing critical services (like politicians and government officials).

Even very successful transit routes typically carry less than 10% of the people travelling along those routes. 6% is actually considered pretty good. 2 or 3% is more common. It can be difficult even getting the ridership information from transit agencies, they like to say how many people they transported over a given length of time to make them look good, and don't say what percentage of the people travelling in the area they actually carry. 

We all know that the supply of oil is finite and will run out someday. Therefore, we all know that some other manner of propulsion is necessary. It's just that I have a problem with powering electric cars with lithium batteries. There are restrictions on transporting lithium batteries, especially in airplanes, but somehow it's OK to transport a large multi-cell battery pack underneath of us in electric powered cars?

My final thought on this, new roadway construction and roadway maintenance are mostly paid for through taxes paid on fuel. Electric vehicles don't pay fuel taxes, so how will we build and maintain roads? The most logical method would be a mileage-based user fee based on vehicle type/weight with GPS collected data. New vehicles could report this data based only on miles travelled. It's bad enough that Google tracks our every move, without having the government knowing, also. How to Stop Google and Other Services From Tracking Your Location | NDTV Gadgets 360 

 

[kevken1959]

I've tried to stay out of this, because there is no way I can avoid not getting somewhat political.

This is just a guess, based on my own experiences of living in many different houses in my lifetime, as well as helping others work on their homes. The majority of homes have 100-amp services and are likely not suitable candidates for installing high current electric vehicle chargers. There are still homes out there that have only 60-amp services. Upgrading these homes require completely new services, including the wiring from the utility's transformers to their meters. For most homeowners this will be somewhat expensive, especially if they live in a neighborhood that has all underground services. Even for those who are not electricians, but have the knowledge and skills, this can be difficult, requiring building plans and permits. Utilities will not connect to a new service until they have been inspected.

It appears that now that we have a need for more electricity, that is not powered by fossil fuel, that nuclear fusion powered plants are getting closer to reality. So, I don't think that power supply is going to be an issue but transporting that extra power, especially through established neighborhoods and commercial districts, may require expensive infrastructure upgrades.

As a transportation professional I have attended many meetings with politicians and appointees. There are politicians and officials out there that believe we should all ride on public transportation, and automobiles should only be available for those providing critical services (like politicians and government officials).

Even very successful transit routes typically carry less than 10% of the people travelling along those routes. 6% is actually considered pretty good. 2 or 3% is more common. It can be difficult even getting the ridership information from transit agencies, they like to say how many people they transported over a given length of time to make them look good, and don't say what percentage of the people travelling in the area they actually carry. 

We all know that the supply of oil is finite and will run out someday. Therefore, we all know that some other manner of propulsion is necessary. It's just that I have a problem with powering electric cars with lithium batteries. There are restrictions on transporting lithium batteries, especially in airplanes, but somehow it's OK to transport a large multi-cell battery pack underneath of us in electric powered cars?

My final thought on this, new roadway construction and roadway maintenance are mostly paid for through taxes paid on fuel. Electric vehicles don't pay fuel taxes, so how will we build and maintain roads? The most logical method would be a mileage-based user fee based on vehicle type/weight with GPS collected data. New vehicles could report this data based only on miles travelled. It's bad enough that Google tracks our every move, without having the government knowing, also. How to Stop Google and Other Services From Tracking Your Location | NDTV Gadgets 360 

Great points, Don. Thanks. Kevin.

 

[Don C]

This is how they will manage to get all of us in electric cars, tailpipe emissions and gas mileage regulations that make it impractical, if not impossible, for car manufacturers to meet with dinosaur fueled engines.

EPA issues new rule to curb tailpipe pollution, fight climate change (msn.com)

 

[kevken1959]

This is how they will manage to get all of us in electric cars, tailpipe emissions and gas mileage regulations that make it impractical, if not impossible, for car manufacturers to meet with dinosaur fueled engines.

EPA issues new rule to curb tailpipe pollution, fight climate change (msn.com)

Don, I think you may have just made this discussion political, lol. I wish they'd Grandfather our antique cars in and just leave us alone. But it seems the "powers that be" want to eliminate anything that was good, pure, and true about this country. Get rid of the statues of our forefathers. Undo the constitution. Create a Marxist, socialist society where everyone sits at home collecting a check from the government and free market enterprise and capitalism is condemned and outlawed. Create the most intrusive government possible. Open any checking account with over $600 to unlimited scrutiny by the IRS. Open our borders to allow enough fentanyl in to kill every man, woman, and child in this country five times over. The past eleven months have been a nightmare. I want things back the way they were before. I guess you can tell you I am for and who I am against. But I'm not naming any names. Because, again, I'm trying NOT to make this political.  

 

[71ProjectJunk]

Don, I think you may have just made this discussion political, lol. I wish they'd Grandfather our antique cars in and just leave us alone. But it seems the "powers that be" want to eliminate anything that was good, pure, and true about this country. Get rid of the statues of our forefathers. Undo the constitution. Create a Marxist, socialist society where everyone sits at home collecting a check from the government and free market enterprise and capitalism is condemned and outlawed. Create the most intrusive government possible. Open any checking account with over $600 to unlimited scrutiny by the IRS. Open our borders to allow enough fentanyl in to kill every man, woman, and child in this country five times over. The past eleven months have been a nightmare. I want things back the way they were before. I guess you can tell you I am for and who I am against. But I'm not naming any names. Because, again, I'm trying NOT to make this political.  

Amen!

 

[Don C]

What do you do when the battery replacement cost is $22,600?

Tesla owner blows up Model S instead of footing $22,600 repair bill (msn.com)

 

[Bentworker]

What do you do when the battery replacement cost is $22,600?

Tesla owner blows up Model S instead of footing $22,600 repair bill (msn.com)

You finance a new car.  Maybe in the future you will be able to get a battery loan?

If you are not going to put 20,000+ miles on an electric car a year it will wear itself out before you wear it out.  Kind of like the 30 year old cordless Makita drill on the back shelf in your garage...

 

[Don C]

At 12,000 miles a year for 9 years that comes out to $0.21 per mile for the battery cost, plus the cost of electricity. For a gasoline car at 12,000 miles per year, 20 miles-per-gallon, $4.00 per gallon comes out to $0.20 per mile, plus oil changes. For the cost of a Tesla you can get a really nice gasoline powered car.

I wonder why people haven't flocked to electric car dealers?

Edit: An average cost per mile for Teslas is in the $0.04 range, so the above cost per mile with battery and electricity comes out to $0.25 per mile. Adding in oil changes to the gasoline powered car brings it up to $0.21 per mile.

 

[Don C]

This is how they go about it (sorry 1sostatic):

UK Inches Closer To Eliminating Private Car Ownership (msn.com)

 

[Bentworker]

Maybe the UK will make cars like the government owned e-scooters.  UK has e-scooters you can rent.  If  you get caught riding your privately owned scooter on public property they impound and destroy it.  Reason 4.396 why I don't live in the UK.

 

[MikeGriese]

Not quite.  It's a 300 GBP fine and 6 points on your license. 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8958/

An e-scooter is an electric vehicle limited to 15.5 mph.  You couldn't ride those on a lot of US roads or sidewalks either. 

 

[71ProjectJunk]

Just found this video on YouTube, must watch for the electric car discussion: