What is a survivor?

[Greg]

It's an interesting topic,..... especially as to the value of a certain thing. I've had the good fortune to participate in the Pebble Beach Concours, out on the west coast. Almost every car in attendance is restored " to a gnat's ass", every nut and bolt re-done, Paintjobs like you've never seen, plating that's better than it ever was ,and I don't believe the field ever has more than a "token" survivor vehice allowed in attendance. Wordwide, the Pebble Beach concours in considered the best of the best, and car values ( $$$$$$$ )there are only attainable by the well-healed set. It would be interesting to see if any cars there are completely un-touched original.
Then, check out vintage guitars....the value here is in an axe that has never been restored, the more battle wear, sometimes the better. If you send your '57 Telecaster to Fender, they have a "Custom Shop", that will re-finish it just like it came, by the same guys who did it in the first place, BUT..............restore it and you lose it's lineage, so they say. Beat up survivors are worth cash. Completely different market.
WW2 aircraft are worth millions of dollars, but not so much if unrestored, too big of a chance of corrosion or cracking, or something unseen causing the aircraft to malfunction, causing death and property damage. Again the asking value is dependant on condition, rather than factory untouched components.
Survivors, Thoroughbreads, Showroom Floor low mileage Barn Finds.....where do you stand, where do you cross over from museum piece to an actual vehicle? I share the sentiment on absolute originality if the thing in question is but 1 or 2 in the whole world. Makes sense in that respect.
Someone once said, " If I had a beautiful, perfect car like that, I wouldn't touch it." Really? If you had the most beautiful and perfect woman in the world, you wouldn't want to touch her? If so, YOU are a better man than I !

The most beautiful woman in the world won't be considered a survivor if you don't touch her. To be fair, same to the girls here and the most perfect man etc. Restored cars stories are erased. Over restored and two stage paint jobs etc. are modified more than restored in my book. I personally care more about options uniqueness etc. more than condition and surviving.

 

[Spike Morelli]

I just added the remarks about perfect women for humors sake, my post was starting to feel like a rant, so I tagged it on a lighter note.

As far as survivors, and rareity. I am an enthusiast, not a spectator, and, besides cars, I'm into vintage drag boats. I own a 1965 drag boat named "Mortician". And it is sitting in my garage right now. It is the oldest /most original / highest record holding/ winningest Unblown Fuel Flatbottom / still existing today. I found it not running, but exactly as it was when last raced in 1967. It was dominant and undefeated for the 3 years that it competed, as well as setting, and upping the world record 5 times . There is only one, it is one of one, and it's in all of the Record books and History books. This boat has provenance, it has lineage. In the world of drag boats, it is the Holy Grail of historic, go fast boats, that will never be again.
My feelings about it? There are those who think I should preserve it, as found.
I am restoring it. It is more valuable than most cars are. I don't believe in "It's only new once ", like a coin that was never put into circulation, that, refers to something that was never used. In reality, it was new once, UNTIL it was first raced, from then on, it was a used boat. I am refinishing it, and restoring all of the original components to "as was when raced" in 1965. The engines ( there are 2 in it ), are fitted with all the correct original pieces externally, and internally, though pistons, ring, bearings are new. When I'm done, the boat will be exactly as it was when new. This particular boat is super valuable, as drag boats go. It will be fully operable, able to lay down a 130+ quarter mile passes right off the trailer when finished, though I'll not ask it to do so. I will take it to the races and use it to make exhibition passes at part throttle to show the crowds what 1965 was like, and that it still lives. I want people to see it, touch it, (fingerprints wipe off ), hear it. It is better to refresh this piece of history, than to let it languish under a cover in storage forever. I don't believe in "patina", that's a term describing age and wear, past it's prime condition, and ill-maintained.
The restoration is partially done so far, brought back like it was when it was first raced, in form and function, the hottest / rarest of it's kind. Photos are 1965 and today.

 

[YellowHorse]

If it drives - it survived the junk yard....so survivor!

 

[ROCKET70]

I just added the remarks about perfect women for humors sake, my post was starting to feel like a rant, so I tagged it on a lighter note.

As far as survivors, and rareity. I am an enthusiast, not a spectator, and, besides cars, I'm into vintage drag boats. I own a 1965 drag boat named "Mortician". And it is sitting in my garage right now. It is the oldest /most original / highest record holding/ winningest Unblown Fuel Flatbottom / still existing today. I found it not running, but exactly as it was when last raced in 1967. It was dominant and undefeated for the 3 years that it competed, as well as setting, and upping the world record 5 times . There is only one, it is one of one, and it's in all of the Record books and History books. This boat has provenance, it has lineage. In the world of drag boats, it is the Holy Grail of historic, go fast boats, that will never be again.
My feelings about it? There are those who think I should preserve it, as found.
I am restoring it. It is more valuable than most cars are. I don't believe in "It's only new once ", like a coin that was never put into circulation, that, refers to something that was never used. In reality, it was new once, UNTIL it was first raced, from then on, it was a used boat. I am refinishing it, and restoring all of the original components to "as was when raced" in 1965. The engines ( there are 2 in it ), are fitted with all the correct original pieces externally, and internally, though pistons, ring, bearings are new. When I'm done, the boat will be exactly as it was when new. This particular boat is super valuable, as drag boats go. It will be fully operable, able to lay down a 130+ quarter mile passes right off the trailer when finished, though I'll not ask it to do so. I will take it to the races and use it to make exhibition passes at part throttle to show the crowds what 1965 was like, and that it still lives. I want people to see it, touch it, (fingerprints wipe off ), hear it. It is better to refresh this piece of history, than to let it languish under a cover in storage forever. I don't believe in "patina", that's a term describing age and wear, past it's prime condition, and ill-maintained.
The restoration is partially done so far, brought back like it was when it was first raced, in form and function, the hottest / rarest of it's kind. Photos are 1965 and today.

I'm glad your restoring it to original. I have a soft spot for race boats. My dad was good friends with Bob Hayward he was his best man at his wedding.
I was young but remember Bob coming over to visit and the stories they would tell. Bob was a great engine builder and use to soup up things around the farm l like riding lawnmower etc. when he was young. In the early 50s he had a hot rod 32 Ford I think and my dad told me stories of him putting a straight 8 from a Buick with multiply carbs with split exhaust manifold and some special cam and no one could get close to him, it would do 135 in the quarter mile.
After that he starting with racing boats called the Miss Supertest he built Rolls Royce engines for the boats. He won the Harmsworth Cup three years in a row
59 60 and 61 and was killed racing Sept 61. It was a sad day at our house. One of best moment when I was young he pull up in front of our house with the racing boat on the back. all the kids in the neighbor hood came out to see it. The Miss Supertest is in a museum in Toronto.
Thanks for restoring a piece of history!

 

[Spike Morelli]

Thanks Rocket70! I know my passion for hot and historic boats ( I have four ) is excessive at times , and off-topic for a Mustang site, so thanks for bearing with me. My point, was not so much to brag about something I own, but to express my personal feeling about putting emphisis on an car that's made it this far, all in one piece, with original parts and paint. Some opinions were to not touch it. I simply don't agree, unless there is some statistical or historical good reason, to make the car totally unvaluable if you restore it. A good example is the original Eleanore.....if you restored it, it just becomes another sportsroof...., but leaving it all bent up and damaged, it's the real thing, you can't replicate that, makes sense then.
I touched on the word "patina" previously. To me, "Rat Rods", and purposly "patina-ed" vehicles are stupid........ Like I can't tell....they may as well hang a big neon sign on those vehicles that says "FAKE". Again, just my opinion.
I think it's fantastic to see a car that someone has taken the time, and spent the money, to restore back to how it was presented from the factory, and, on the flip side, there's plenty of room for those who modify engines, paintjobs, wheels, interiors, etc, into a custom or hot rodded Mustang. My opinion again, I think I'd leave a Boss car alone, and restore it as was. They're scarce, and a high water mark for First gen Mustangs.
You know, now and again someone will stop to admire my Mach 1, and invariably compliment the car saying "You don't see many of those, or very many all stock". I have to tell them it's stock, but hardly, technically, original. In the 32 years I've owned it, I have re-painted it twice (original color ), re-upholstered it twice ( replacement original kits), re-built the engine / trans / rear end/ suspensions , replaced the exhaust system ( stock manifolds with NPD dual exhaust kit, replaced the windshield glass, replace most all of the trim hardware throughout the years, re-done both bumpers, you name it. At this point, I've darned near replaced or repaired the whole vehicle as necessary, and yet, left it alone. To an admirer, it appears to have been "un-molested", but it's not "un-touched". Mission accomplished.
P.S., Sounds like Bob Hayward was a hot-rodder, who happened to get his feet wet. That's how it happens.

 

[kevken1959]

Thanks Rocket70! I know my passion for hot and historic boats ( I have four ) is excessive at times , and off-topic for a Mustang site, so thanks for bearing with me. My point, was not so much to brag about something I own, but to express my personal feeling about putting emphisis on an car that's made it this far, all in one piece, with original parts and paint. Some opinions were to not touch it. I simply don't agree, unless there is some statistical or historical good reason, to make the car totally unvaluable if you restore it. A good example is the original Eleanore.....if you restored it, it just becomes another sportsroof...., but leaving it all bent up and damaged, it's the real thing, you can't replicate that, makes sense then.
I touched on the word "patina" previously. To me, "Rat Rods", and purposly "patina-ed" vehicles are stupid........ Like I can't tell....they may as well hang a big neon sign on those vehicles that says "FAKE". Again, just my opinion.
I think it's fantastic to see a car that someone has taken the time, and spent the money, to restore back to how it was presented from the factory, and, on the flip side, there's plenty of room for those who modify engines, paintjobs, wheels, interiors, etc, into a custom or hot rodded Mustang. My opinion again, I think I'd leave a Boss car alone, and restore it as was. They're scarce, and a high water mark for First gen Mustangs.
You know, now and again someone will stop to admire my Mach 1, and invariably compliment the car saying "You don't see many of those, or very many all stock". I have to tell them it's stock, but hardly, technically, original. In the 32 years I've owned it, I have re-painted it twice (original color ), re-upholstered it twice ( replacement original kits), re-built the engine / trans / rear end/ suspensions , replaced the exhaust system ( stock manifolds with NPD dual exhaust kit, replaced the windshield glass, replace most all of the trim hardware throughout the years, re-done both bumpers, you name it. At this point, I've darned near replaced or repaired the whole vehicle as necessary, and yet, left it alone. To an admirer, it appears to have been "un-molested", but it's not "un-touched". Mission accomplished.
P.S., Sounds like Bob Hayward was a hot-rodder, who happened to get his feet wet. That's how it happens.

That's one interesting boat Spike! If I understand you correctly when it comes to cars, it seems you have no place in you heart for what would be a called a "survivor." That's okay. To each his own. But your car is a restored car, and could never be called a survivor. I just don't think the words "survivor" and "restored" can be used to describe the same car. The topic here is "what is a survivor?" Based on what you said about Pebble Beach, it seems they don't have room for "survivors" either if all of their cars are restored to a "T." When it comes to value, I certainly don't think the term "survivor" brings more money, but I have read articles and seen certain old cars that people claim are worth a fortune because of all the dirt on them. I guess those people are correct if those cars do in fact sell for more money than a similar car that is restored. I can love and appreciate a nice original unrestored car, but it is hard to discount the appeal of a flawless restored car like the one's you describe at Pebble Beach. Just my thoughts. Kevin.

 

[bucketlist fastback]

Cost big,big coin $$$ to restore one of these babies. Why not just start with a good survivor?

 

[giantpune]

Interesting question... What did it survive?
I'd wager my car has survived more than most of them here on the boards.
Been totaled, drivetrain pulled and parked in a field for years, rebuilt, totaled again, frame straightened, tree limbs fell on it, offroaded, and made it into a movie. And some time in between all that it was my daily driver while I was in college and a pizza delivery driver.

You guys think I can call this one a survivor?




I guess the real answer to the question for "what did it survive?", what most people would consider a survivor car, it somehow survived this long and its in great condition. That could mean it was owned by an old preacher or secretary or grandma that drove it 2 miles a month. Car could have been stored in a time capsule. Its not a matter of what the car went through, just the fact that it made it this long. A cicada that only comes out of the ground every 17 years is still surviving. I wouldn't call it much of a life, though.

 

[kevken1959]

Cost big,big coin $$$ to restore one of these babies. Why not just start with a good survivor? View attachment 69699

Beautiful!!