Car wont start

[will e]

Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't know how much experience you have. Generally I would avoid doing a 'major' activity like replacing a timing chain in this situation. You have introduced additional possible failures and it will make trouble shooting that much more difficult. In the future, unless you have reason to believe a specific part like the timing chain is causing the no-start, you will want to find the no start cause first. Just my 2 cents from my own personal experiences.

That makes sense but i would have to constantly adjust the dizzy to start it every day.

Thanks for understanding my input.

If you had to adjust the dizzy most days to get it to start I am thinking points. They are very mechanical. You may have a set that is slow to close when cold. This might cause them to not get enough saturation time (although at idle there is usually plenty).

You also want to confirm if the positive on the coil has 9 or plus volts when cranking. There is a wire from the starter solenoid that gives the coil much more voltage when cranking. It won't be a full 12 volts since the starter has such a draw but it will be much more than 3 or so volts you would normally see.

Also, is the coil stock? Look at it closely and see if there is any reference to an internal resistance. There are basically two types of coils. Internal and external resistance. Our mustangs have a resistor wire that drops the volts to the coil while running. They use an 'external resistor' coil. Sometimes an internal resistor coil gets swapped in. They can work but generally it will cause issues.

 

[Digdugjake]

With the points closed, put one lead on one side of the points and the other lead on the other side, it should show power. At the coil, with the engine off and key on and points open you should see battery voltage, with the points closed, voltage should drop to 8v, +/-2v.

I am getting 12 volts closed but only .03 open. What would cause this?

 

[Don C]

Connect the ground lead of your volt meter to a good ground and connect the positive lead to the positive terminal on the coil.

 

[Stanglover]

Junk the points and put in a Pertronix Ignitor II module and a Flamethrower II coil. This can run with the resisted PINK wire that our cars have for the points, but is even better with a full 12V directly from the ignition switch or there is a Pertronix relay that is available which I believe bypasses the resistor wire. Worth looking into, that's what I have. Word of caution, do NOT buy the Ignitor III for the stock distributor, as I had major issues with the "bearing" between the two plates. The PII fits directly on your existing points plate, but you will need to check that it is clean and moving freely. Do that even if you stay with points as a sticking plate will cause issues I'm sure.

That's just my opinion.

 

[73pony]

+1 on the Pertronix. Well worth it. So is using the relay. The relay is simple to wire up. It uses the pink resistor wire as the signal for the relay then pulls 12v direct. Mine was wired in and mounted right next to the starter solenoid so a ground source and full 12v was readily available.

 

[Stanglover]

+1 on the Pertronix. Well worth it. So is using the relay. The relay is simple to wire up. It uses the pink resistor wire as the signal for the relay then pulls 12v direct. Mine was wired in and mounted right next to the starter solenoid so a ground source and full 12v was readily available.

Jason, good info on the relay. For me, I was unaware it even existed when mine was converted, so I followed the instructions from Pertronix and removed the pink wire, replacing it with the spec'd 10 gauge wire directly to the coil. Doing it again, I would definitely get the replay not only to save time and difficulty, it can be easily be reversed.

 

[73pony]

Yeah when I was doing mine and it told me the bypass the pink wire which I didn't want to do. So I started doing some research and someone on the forum here mentioned the relay so I found it and it was very simple to wire up.

 

[cjstaci]

First, did you check for spark? I ask so I know if we are chasing an ignition problem or a timing problem.

If you did check for a spark and there was none, make sure the cap and rotor is good condition, and clean and dry. Any moisture or oil inside the cap can prevent it from starting. If all that is good, open and close the points with the key on, you are looking for an arc as the point s open and close. If no arc, check the resistance on the coil. With the test leads across the + and - terminals, primary resistance should be around .5 to 2 ohms, check the secondary resistance with the + lead to the + side of coil and other lead to the coil output, resistance should be around 6K to 15K ohms. If the coil resistance is good check the condenser, disconnect the condenser wire and hook the condenser lead to battery voltage for a few seconds and then check the condenser for voltage, it should show voltage and slowly bleed down. If no voltage then it's probably shorted.

 

[Digdugjake]

There is spark on initial cranking but not any more until you stop cranking. I will check the coil and condenser and get back to you.

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[Digdugjake]

First, did you check for spark? I ask so I know if we are chasing an ignition problem or a timing problem.

If you did check for a spark and there was none, make sure the cap and rotor is good condition, and clean and dry. Any moisture or oil inside the cap can prevent it from starting. If all that is good, open and close the points with the key on, you are looking for an arc as the point s open and close. If no arc, check the resistance on the coil. With the test leads across the + and - terminals, primary resistance should be around .5 to 2 ohms, check the secondary resistance with the + lead to the + side of coil and other lead to the coil output, resistance should be around 6K to 15K ohms. If the coil resistance is good check the condenser, disconnect the condenser wire and hook the condenser lead to battery voltage for a few seconds and then check the condenser for voltage, it should show voltage and slowly bleed down. If no voltage then it's probably shorted.

I tested the coil. Primary is 1.8 secondary is 9.75

 

[will e]

There is spark on initial cranking but not any more until you stop cranking. I will check the coil and condenser and get back to you.

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Ok, grab a spare piece of wire. Run it from the positive battery post to the positive on the coil. Try starting the engine. If it keeps running there is a problem somewhere in the wiring or you are running the wrong coil. Be aware that the engine will NOT stop running until you remove the spare piece of wire. Even turning the key off will not work.

The coil has two positive connections going to it. One includes a resistor wire and it engergized when the key in on (and cranking). There is a factory resistor wire that drops the voltage. There are reasons for this but lets keep this post short.

The second connectioncomes from the starter solenoid. When the solenoid is activated there is a small post that is energized in addition to the large wire that goes to the starter. This provides more voltage during cranking to the coil.

Let us know if this helps and then we can work out the rest of the problem. (If this doesn't help then it elminiates a few things as well)

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

spark when cranking that goes away when you quit cranking is a sign that there is a problem in the wiring.

When cranking the coil gets a full 12v boost from the starter relay/solenoid. If your spark stops after that trace the coil wire back through the harness and you will find a connector- It may simply not be plugged in completely.

 

[Stanglover]

Yeah when I was doing mine and it told me the bypass the pink wire which I didn't want to do. So I started doing some research and someone on the forum here mentioned the relay so I found it and it was very simple to wire up.

Yeah, I wish I'd known about it back in 2012 when the Pertronix was installed by the engine shop. Took a lot of back breaking work to do it under the dash. The relay would have save all that agro.

 

[cjstaci]

If you have spark when cranking it, it should sound like it wants to start. If that's the case, do like Will said and run a hot wire from the battery to the coil, crank it, it should start, if so, like he said, you will have to remove the hot wire to turn it off. Then you will know that you have a wire or ignition switch issue, or possibly the relay.

If you have spark and it doesn't start after trying the hot wire, then you may have the distributor in a tooth off.

 

[will e]

Technically there is no such thing as a distributor tooth off. The only time you would need to change the relationship is if the ability to turn the distributor housing keeps you from getting it to the inital timing you want. This is usually caused by the vacuum advance being blocked from further movement by an accessory or radiator hose.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Maybe your not holding your mouth just right

 

[73droptop]

I had this problem last summer, car ran great shut it off and would kind of start but not really. I took it to an old garage down the street, they said carb rebuild. $100 later it wasnt that. I had to tow it a couple times $200. Got it to my shop looked at the timing for days, sometimes it would sort of start but would not keep running. Checked all of the above, spark, timing, TDC, spun the dizzy everything. 73, 351C.

Finally for no good reason I took off the points and condenser and put on the old pertronix which I removed a year earlier then cranked it and BAM, it started right up, instantly, and still runs great. It was a $ 1.95 condenser, although it tested fine. A long time ago we did points and condenser every year whether the car needed it or not. Guess my year was up.

 

[Digdugjake]

After a new coil it will run for about 5 minutes and then struggle and die. Would the cause still be points and condensor?

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[will e]

Did you get an external resistor coil? What voltage do you have at the coil while the car is running for those 5 minutes.

Connect a dwell meter and watch what happens when the car starts to sputter and die.

 

[Don C]

The condenser may be breaking down under load. The purpose of the condenser (it is just a capacitor) is to minimize arcing when the points open. It will run without it, just not well and the points won't last long without it. I would disconnect it and see if it will run, if it does, you'll know it is the condenser.