Engine identification

[Jayro]

Hey all,

Chasing some help to identify my engine. So recently purchased my 73. Was imported here to Australia in 2019. Numbers and paperwork indicates it was originally a 6 cyl. Seems new engine and transmission went in back in around 2012-2013.

When I purchased it the guy knew bugger all about cars. And openly admitted his parents left it to him but he has no interest in cars. I was told it was a 302 which I know is not anything unusual. BUT from my research with a few car guys over here they say my engine is a Cleveland and not a Windsor.

Then they tell me the 302 clevo was not really in your market but for ours? Apparently exactly the same with 4” bore but the stroke is different. I was advised to remove plugs, get top dead Centre, insert tube and mark the depth then do the same at bottom of revolution and measure. 3” = 302 & 3.5” = 351.

I also Have some of the service papers from the states and on the service docket it lists it as a 351.

This all seem right or? Just try to confirm either way.

Cheers
Jase

 

[Stanglover]

Here is a pic of my 71 351 Cleveland M code.
The engine ID is located just above the starter, so can only be seen with starter removed. An easier dead give away is the top rad hose which mounts vertically off the block. (img 2875). Also the heads are quite a bit wider than 351W or 302 and the rad hose comes off the front of the block.
I'm pretty sure you have a Cleveland, but with a lot of aftermarket add-ons.

 

[Don C]

Do you know whether or not it has the engine it was imported with? If it does you can get the casting number, which is located above the starter, to identify it. If the engine was installed in Australia it won't have the Ford casting numbers on it. If it is a U.S. block the casting numbers in this thread may help
https://7173mustangs.com/threads/casting-numbers-and-engine-codes.19593/

 

[Don C]

The U.S. Boss 302 also had its own intake:
http://www.mustangtek.com/Intake/C9FE-9424-E.html

 

[71ProjectJunk]

We never had the 302 Clevo here in the USA, with the small port head and the small chambers. That is an Australia only engine. If that engine came in the car from the USA, it would be basically impossible for it to the the 302 Clevo you guys have in Australia. That engine looks like a 351 Cleveland. Take the air cleaner off and look at the back of the intake manifold, that is an Edelbrock intake manifold, in the back it should say something like "Performer 351". That intake will tell you exactly what engine you have. Here is a link to the current production Edelbrock 351 Cleveland intake:

https://www.edelbrock.com/performer-351-intake-manifold-for-ford-351-2v-cleveland-engine-2750.html

 

[detritusmaximus]

I would suspect the Edelbrock will fit both 351 Cleveland and 302 Cleveland.
Upper radiator hose on Clevelands goes vertically into the block, horizontally into Windsors intake manifold.

From the outside, a 302C and 351C look the same, same exterior dimensions, same architecture. 302W and 351W look similar but are of different sizes. 351W is physically bigger than a 302W even though it shares architecture.

Other differences: Fuel pump mounting bolts are vertical on one enginie family and horizontal on the other (I forget which is which, though). On Clevelands the front of the block extends out to enclose the timing gear. Valve covers are different with different bolt patterns.

351Windsor:

 

[Don C]

The heads on 351Cs are about an inch further apart than the Boss 302 due to deck height differences (9.206" & 8.206"). The Boss 302 manifolds are unique and fit only the Boss 302. Another clue about Boss 302s, they came with screw in freeze plugs.

 

[Stanglover]

So, there is one other unique Cleveland ID we missed and that is 8 bolts to hold the valve covers. Windsor and 302's have 6, except of course a B302.
I took a couple mor pics of my 351C that might help our friend down under.
From the head to the front of the chain case measured 6.6cm / 2 5/8" and the head was 16.5cm / 6 1/2" (approx.)

 

[Jayro]

Thanks all for the replies. Sorry I should have made explained myself better. Engine is certainly a clevo and not a Windsor. Radiator hose, width of it and the fuel pump bolts along with 8 bolt valve covers all help confirm she is a Cleveland.

Just trying to know for sure if it’s a 302 or 351. I was also sent another message over here telling me again the only 2 sure ways are the number near the starter motor that you guys mentions so thank you for that one

And then the other way is that measure I took of the stroke apparently confirms 351.

Appreciate the replies

 

[giantpune]

What's your firing order?

 

[Jayro]

What's your firing order?

Ohh I’m not sure. Are they different between the 2 Cleveland’s?

 

[giantpune]

Ohh I’m not sure. Are they different between the 2 Cleveland’s?

I'm not sure. Here in the US, 351s have different firing orders than 289 and 302 and the other ford V8s.

If all they did in OZ to create the 302C was to take some stroke out of the crankshaft, then the 302C would have the same firing order as the 351C. But if they made a camshaft and a crankshaft for the 302C, then maybe they used the standard 302 firing order. I figured if you did have anything besides the 351 firing order, that was a dead giveaway that its not a 351C.

If you've got the oil pan off it, or maybe could sneak a boroscope through the oil pan drain plug hole, there's a 302 stamp on the 302C crankshaft.

 

[71ProjectJunk]

I would suspect the Edelbrock will fit both 351 Cleveland and 302 Cleveland.
Upper radiator hose on Clevelands goes vertically into the block, horizontally into Windsors intake manifold.

From the outside, a 302C and 351C look the same, same exterior dimensions, same architecture. 302W and 351W look similar but are of different sizes. 351W is physically bigger than a 302W even though it shares architecture.

Other differences: Fuel pump mounting bolts are vertical on one enginie family and horizontal on the other (I forget which is which, though). On Clevelands the front of the block extends out to enclose the timing gear. Valve covers are different with different bolt patterns.

351Windsor:

View attachment 61912

The intakes for the 351 Cleveland and the Boss 302 are completely different. They will physically not fit, but even if they did, the Boss 302 intake will have the water outlet on the actual intake, and the 351 Cleveland has no water outlet on the intake as the water outlet is on the block. The Boss 302 has a unique 302 Windsor 4 bolt main block, that was only available on the Boss 302. The 351 Cleveland block is completely different. The "Cleveland" heads were first seen on the Boss 302 engines in 1969, one year before they came out on the 351 Cleveland engines. A Boss 302 is basically a 302 Windsor block with big port closed chamber 4V Cleveland heads.
The confusion on the OP's part comes from the fact that Ford of Australia came out with a 302 Cleveland engine in 1972. The Australian 302 Cleveland is unique to Australia, an was made out of an actual de-stroked 351 Cleveland. They use the 4.0 bore 351 Cleveland block with a unique 3.0" stroke crankshaft. They then used a unique set of long 6.025" rods to make it all work. The most special thing about the Australian 302 Cleveland engine is that Ford of Australia combined the high velocity 351 C 2V intake ports, with a closed chamber head that was somewhere in the 56-59cc size. Those heads had the smallest chambers ever on a Cleveland style head, USA Spec 351 closed chamber heads are somewhere in the 62-66 CC size. If I recall correctly they came with the same valve sizes as the 351 C 2V head that was used in the USA, but you could obviously open valve seats up all the way to the 351 C 4V valve sizes.
The Australian 302 Cleveland head was a popular head to import into the USA in the late 80's and probably well into the early 2000's. I sold a couple of modified sets to a couple of customers in the early 90's from someone who was importing them from Australia in the late 80's-early 90's. Back then there were none of the aluminum heads we have today, and the closed chamber 302 Cleveland Australian heads, with some good sized valves, and properly ported, made an unbeatable street head. They would really wake up a low compression 351 C...

 

[detritusmaximus]

You are totally correct. I left out the Boss 302 partially because it is highly unlikely someone would swap one into the car in question (although, a Clevor would be a more likely possibility...except it still doesn't look like his motor with the water connection to the block), and specifically because while it is a Cleveland headed engine, the basic motor architecture is Windsor.

A friend local to me has a 75 XB Goss Special with an actual 302 Cleveland in it. I must say, driving a right hand drive car in a left hand country is fun! The look on other drivers faces when they see a driver reading a newspaper is priceless

 

[machphil]

Hey all,

Chasing some help to identify my engine. So recently purchased my 73. Was imported here to Australia in 2019. Numbers and paperwork indicates it was originally a 6 cyl. Seems new engine and transmission went in back in around 2012-2013.

When I purchased it the guy knew bugger all about cars. And openly admitted his parents left it to him but he has no interest in cars. I was told it was a 302 which I know is not anything unusual. BUT from my research with a few car guys over here they say my engine is a Cleveland and not a Windsor.

Then they tell me the 302 clevo was not really in your market but for ours? Apparently exactly the same with 4” bore but the stroke is different. I was advised to remove plugs, get top dead Centre, insert tube and mark the depth then do the same at bottom of revolution and measure. 3” = 302 & 3.5” = 351.

I also Have some of the service papers from the states and on the service docket it lists it as a 351.

This all seem right or? Just try to confirm either way.

Cheers
Jase

View attachment 61902View attachment 61903

The cast iron timing chain housing that is integral with the block indicates that it is a Cleveland.

 

[Stanglover]

I must say this has turned into a very interesting and informative post. My 'signature' says "I learn something new every day" and ' today' I have.
Obviously I knew there was a 302 version of the Cleveland heads, both the US Boss version and the Australian version, but I never connected the dots to an actual Aus 302 version of the 351C, Duhh! The only other version of the 351C was of course the 351M or 400. And yes, there was of course someone came up with the "Clevor", no doubt from someone figuring out that if Ford could build the Boss 302 on a 302W block, then a 351 was possible on a 351W block.
So, back to jayro's question; to me it all adds up to a 351C, but what heads does he have on it? As we know, there are date codes between the valve springs that can be read, but the actual casting numbers are under the intake ports and to see them, the intake has to come off, then you need to stand on your head to read them (or get a mirror!) The only other maybe easier way would be to pull an exhaust manifold or header to measure the port size.
And the saga continues...............

 

[basstrix]

Just out of curiosity, what is the 5th digit of the VIN? It should be a letter. The script "f" at the leading end of the VIN is not part of the actual VIN, so keep that in mind.

 

[RacerX]

Thanks all for the replies. Sorry I should have made explained myself better. Engine is certainly a clevo and not a Windsor. Radiator hose, width of it and the fuel pump bolts along with 8 bolt valve covers all help confirm she is a Cleveland.

Just trying to know for sure if it’s a 302 or 351. I was also sent another message over here telling me again the only 2 sure ways are the number near the starter motor that you guys mentions so thank you for that one

And then the other way is that measure I took of the stroke apparently confirms 351.

Appreciate the replies

You have your answers above. You have to measure the stroke of the pistons/crank. And get the engine casting codes above the starter if the 302C block used a different casting than the 351C. That one I'm not sure of.

 

[72XR007]

Jayro can you take a picture of the top left corner of the head. That tells if this is a 2 or 4 barrel head and what combustion chamber it has.

 

[Q1SVT]

Just trying to know for sure if it’s a 302 or 351.

And then the other way is that measure I took of the stroke apparently confirms 351.

Appreciate the replies

Like in the states an Aussie motor most likely has been rebuilt...

You'll need to determine the stroke, or see the casting '302' on crankshaft to know if 302 or 351 crankshaft...

For heads Aussie made heads 302 & 351 do not have the number in the corners of the head. But it's easy to know if it is a 302 aussie head, they are the only one's with the three cutouts at the head mating at block,


and the squared off head bolt riser lower right bolt... only aussie 302 heads has that style riser



Great source on Aussie engines and cars.... from the UK LOL
www.aus-ford-uk .co.uk/html/engines.html

edited: forgot to mention that the aussie 302C head is the only cleveland 2V head that has the 4V exhaust 'casting' flange that allows a 4V header/exhaust to bolt up to it without needing an adapter.