Hyper pistons and timing issues

[Stanglover]

Has anyone else experienced this problem with Hypereutectic pistons chipping caused by a bad distributor?

I had my 351C M code motor professionally rebuilt late 2012. The builder chose KB177 pistons which actually are .020" taller (1.67" compression height) than stock. The distributor was a new reman. that was supposedly the correct spec. The only change was to go with PerTronx III. I wanted to keep it all stock appearing. On running the motor in the car, spark knock was immediate. Too high compression for 91 octane fuel was my first thought as the pistons put the ratio close to 11.0:1 static, taking head and block truing into consideration. I could go on and on, but after several discussions with the builder, he agreed to put the car on a dyno in late 2014 and 4k miles of spark rattle under load at 3k rpm, it was seen that the distributor timing was drifting up to 39 deg. and not constant. Oil consumption was up too. I used an inspection camera in #1 cylinder and saw vertical oil streaks above the piston and the top edge of the piston appeared rough. Scored bores obviously, but why? I emailed UEM, makers of the KB pistons and was told that "hyper piston do not do well in a bad timing environment" such as I've experienced. I also contacted the distributor re-manufacturer and it would appear they only build to a 'middle of the road' setting. Springs and weight curve kits are not available, although a tech did send me some that 'may' be different.

I am now faced with pulling the original date correct motor, which may be junk and build a new one.

My question is: Has anyone else experienced this problem and what pistons and distributor would be recommended for my strictly street M code Mach 1 to avoid this happening again? If I do go back to hyper pistons, I'll not be using a stock distributor for sure, but I will lose my stock appearing engine compartment.

 

[Don C]

4,000 miles of knocking is enough to destroy any piston, let alone the more brittle hypereutectic pistons. My question, why bump the compression on a street engine? Usually compression increases are accompanied by increasing the cam duration and lift, effectively reducing the dynamic compression ratio and pinging potential.

 

[Mister 4x4]

I have a 351C-2V with some KB Hypereutectics (9.5:1) running normal timing (16* BTDC @ idle & no vac - running up to 36*). My distributor is a Cardone with a 'stock' appearance running a Duraspark ignition module. It looks pretty stock, actually (well, the Accel Super Coil, not so much), and with the Duraspark module hidden behind the passenger side shock tower, it's a fairly well concealed mod.

The reason I went that route is to fit the factory (repop in my case) Ram Air air cleaner without having to modify because of clearance issues with MSD or other HEI-type distributors.

So far, so good.

 

[72HCODE]

i had the same issue, builder used Hypereutectic pistons in my engine with open chamber heads, he might of tried to use the taller pistons to increase compression.

Engine knocked majorly from day one.

some things that might of saved my engine, first there were so many issues the car did not get driven much.

next i had a high efficiency core rad made which made my engine run cold.

i had a Massive carb backfire issue so the first change was installing a 50cc accelerator pump from the stock 30cc

next was drop 2 heat ranges on the plugs to see if that would stop the knocking, it didn't

I limited total timing using a piece of rubber hose on the end stops in the the distributor. again no real change.

ditched the mr gasket spring kit that the engine builder installed for oem and retarded timing.

i then spent years farting around with the carb increasing fuel delivery and retarding timing and distributor curve until the engine became tolerable.

in that time i had a massive oil consuption issue which turned out to be the teflon seals for the valve stems failing, switched to Vitron seals.

basically Hypereutectic pistons are crap, and never combine them with open chamber heads and a retarded engine builder.

the detonation was horrible in my car, marbles in the mufflers, flames blowing out of the carb from lean misfire. all that on a new rebuild and the engine went on a dyno before getting to me so it was turn key,, turn key my butt!

I've told myself if there is scoring in the cylinder heads and my pistons are messed up i don't want to know unless the engine grenades then i'm junking my 72 and calling it a day.

 

[Stanglover]

Thanks for your replies. To answer the question, " why bump compression on a street engine?" it was NOT the intent. The aim was 9.5:1, but I can only assume the builder either made a mistake, happened to have a set of KB177's on the shelf, or simply did not know that the 177's were .020" taller. Either way, with closed chamber heads and the use of fuel additive, it should have handled the higher compression. A bad distributor is the issue. ( I didn't mention the company's name, but someone else did)

The 4K miles between first finding out the problem and where I'm at now, is the result of many "discussions" with the builder and actually finally diagnosing the real issue. If driving normally, avoiding too hard accelerations, this engine still has loads of power, so I was not too concerned about putting the miles on it. Should I have pulled it earlier, yes, but it is what it is now.

I appreciate all your comments which will no doubt help me decide what I need to do for a better reliable motor. I am hoping that the bores are not that damaged and can be honed to .040" with a new set of pistons................, but I could be holding my breath a loooong time!!

 

[Hemikiller]

I would run a set of forged pistons on your next build. Other than being minutely heavier, there's no reason not to run forged in a 351C.

You can have your stock appearing cake and eat it too, by using a Duraspark distributor. The only giveaway is the two wires exiting the housing, vs one on a points setup. You can bury the box behind headlight or shock tower, or step up to an MSD or similar ignition.

 

[barnett468]

.

ok, good info above . . this is incredibly simple.

run whatever pistons you want . . as mentioned, the pistons were NOT your problem . . even if you put 2618 material pistons in it and let it ping for 4,000 miles, those will blow up too . . your engine was telling you something was very wrong for 4,000 miles ad you simply ignored it.

set your timing CURVE in your stock distributor so it does not ping . . I or someone else will tell you how to do this if you want.

since you have to rebuild it, use lower compression, if you tell us what your cam is we can suggest a decent compression.

octane boosters are basically useless . . the best ones like torco only raise the octane by 2 points . . the best one is caled real led and has real tel [lead] in it but it is pricey and you dont want to be using boosters anyway.

your engine EASILY could have been saved if you ran the temp at 180, ran a spark plug that is 1 step colder than stock, jet it a hair rich, and reduced your timing.

if it were me, i would set my quench/squish clearance to around .035 . . this will also square the block deck to the crank if it is done properly and will reduce the potential for detonation with closed chamber heads.

 

[MeZapU]

I would have suspected that the spark plugs would have looked like hell and been the first real indicator of the engines detonation ills. If your engine still has good even compression, one solution would be to install a camshaft that would lower the dynamic compression ratio effectively making the engine something that will run as you expect it to. You would need to contact a company that can build you a custom camshaft to effectively make the best of your particular combination.

Custom Cam Company I Use

Custom camshaft Q&A

If you contact that company and talk with Mr Curtis, he can design a cam for your exact engine that should cure your ills, as long as there are no other underlying issues with the rest of the engine combination. I have ordered and installed several custom camshafts over the years. Please feel free to ask me any questions that you may have if you decide to give this option a try vs building a new shortblock.

You can try other tuning tricks to try and stem the symptoms of detonation, but ultimately they all have an affect on overall engine performance. If you change the camshaft to cure the main issue, then all of the standard engine tuning practices will remain traditional and you will not need to compromise timing, temperature, fuel, etc.

Just my thoughts.

 

[4Vforever]

I don't know why hyper Pistons get such a bad rap as I've used them in many engines over the years with zero problems. These Pistons have been in everything from street driven everyday engines, street/strip engines and 7000+ RPM burnout engines, all without a single piston failure because of its design or materials used in making them. As for brands though I've only used the KB's (customer supplied) in one engine I'd built, which was a SBC but seemed to be alright and the engine still runs and still makes the occasional trip to the strip. I'd heard of claims about the KB hypers not being up to par and the set I seen seemed OK, so I really can't comment too much about them. The hypers I've had a lot of success with are the Dynotec ones and have seen first hand and heard many compliments on what these things handle, heck I've got a set still on rods that had well over 100 passes on them, plus a few burnout comps, we were even running N2o (150 shot) on these for atleast half of that time, yet the Pistons themselves are quite fine, one rod on the other hand has a big S in it from a casting fault in the head allowing water into the cylinder, but all 8 Pistons are quite fine and if replaced the bent rod, would have no problem running them again. As yourself and many have said your biggest problem was the distributor, but allowing the problem to continue for that many miles was just asking for troubles, plus the fact your engine builder knew of this happening and allowing it to continue tells me that he doesn't really know what he's doing or just didn't care. I wouldn't let this problem continue for 4miles let alone 4000 and as Barnett said it wouldn't matter what piston you were using, the results were never going to be favourable. Reading the spark plugs should've told someone that something bad was going on inside the engine, let alone the pinging noise of it detonating its head off. An ignition curve would've solved atleast some of the problems (maybe not all) and without knowing what camshaft you're running, using one as Mike suggested to let off a bit more dynamic comp may've been needed to get make everything right for your engine. As has been suggested a custom camshaft by a very reputable camshaft grinder (Ed Curtis as recommended) will help a lot for a desirable outcome. Hopefully your block is salvageable and may get away with a rehone and new Pistons, or maybe able to hone it to .030 over. In any case don't blame the piston for what was ultimately an ignition problem and running it that way for far too long, because if you were to take that much punishment for that long, you wouldn't be real healthy either. Anyway all the best with the outcome and remember, there are many people on here only too happy to help you if needed so problems like these don't happen again.

 

[c9zx]

The piston issue first. The following was lifted from a post made by Barry Robotic, owner of Survival Motorsports. It sums up the matter well, in my opinion. "Its not at all about ultimate strength. In a lab environment the hypers may perform better in tensile and deformation testing to the point of failure. Its about the failure mode.

Forgings generally fail in a plastic fashion - they'll deform and crack before coming apart. Hypers fail in an explosive fashion - all the silicon nodules in the alloy are inherent stress points, and failure will sometimes result in "cup o' pistons" where no part is bigger than an inch in diameter.

Since performance applications in a non-OE environment are subject to unpredictable and uncontrollable conditions - such as over-rev from missed shifts, or broken driveline components, or marginal fuel systems, or overeager drivers, or....they are a lot more likely to get into the faiure/stress mode. Nobody ever intends to break an engine - but "are you feeling lucky?"

Difference in weight between aluminum alloys is nominal. You can do things in a forging that are more difficult in casting. You can do things in castings that are more difficult in forging. At the end of the proverbial day weight is almost entirely dependant on cross sections. The stronger forged alloys can be machined to thinner cross sections hence they can be lighter.

Similar situations and comparisons exist for the clearance variances in materials and castings vs forging. The piston design has a greater impact on clearance than does the alloy etc." If oil consumption is up and compression is down, it is likely that one or more ring lands have been damaged.

The distributor issue. The problem did not occur because the distributor was "stock". The distributor did not have the proper curve for the application, too much advance, and too much compression for the cam used, as Don C said.

I have seen several rebuilt distributors have in excess of 50 degrees advance including the vacuum advance. It doesn't matter who makes the distributor, what matters is having the correct curve for the application. The "right" curve is determined by a great number of variables; compression, cam overlap, octane, gear ratios, weight, vehicle use, etc.. Most of the time it is not just a matter of changing springs. It usually requires mechanically limiting the amount of possible mechanical advance by narrowing the advance slot and limiting the amount of possible vacuum advance. While it can be done by trial and error with a timing light, it is a lot easier to have reputable shop do it for you. While the number of people who can and will do this have declined greatly, there are some still out there. Here is one. http://428cobrajetcars.com

Obviously the octane of the fuel being used plays a large role in determining when detonation or pre ignition occurs. Octane differences of one or two points can make a significant difference in the likely hood of detonation occurring.

I hope you get it all sorted out and can save the numbers matching block.

Chuck

 

[Stanglover]

I really appreciate the time and effort that you all have put into this issue. I am sure it will help others as well. Probably most of us in the hobby are drivers rather than mechanics, so all the information provided is a great learning curve. Mistakes happen as in my case and the old adage " Wish I knew then what I know now" surely applies here. I'm a nuts and bolts sort of guy, but the fine points of tuning are out of my wheelhouse and sometimes relying on others advice can get one in trouble.............like me!!

Using UEM's compression ratio calculator for KB177 pistons with the numbers I was supplied, I get a static ratio of 10.56 and if I did it right, a dynamic ratio of 9.64. The cam chosen is a Melling MTF2 Hydraulic. Numbers are: cam lift int .281 & .296 exh. Valve lift, int. .486 & .512 exh. Lobe center 106 & 118, SAE duration, 282 int & 292 exh. .050 duration 204 & 214 Sae timing BTC 30, ABC 72, BBC 78 ATC 34 and .050 timing, BTC-4, ABC 28, BBC 45, ATC -11.

I find this cam to be quite good at low end torque and as the PerTronix III is still set at factory RPM limit of 5K, it has all the power I need for the very restricted driving we are allowed in Ontario. Any of you who have been here will know what I mean, low speed limits and "Stunt driving" laws......... 50 kms. ( 30 mph) over and lose your ride for a week plus big fines. Be warned guys if you plan on driving here!!

I am using a Holley 670 street avenger, which I have found to be quite efficient, gives good mileage and pulling power and my plug read on Autolite arf 42 plugs is a light tan and no sign of burning or other indications of trouble. As I said, if I accelerate gently, I can get the revs up without noticing the rattle, not saying it's not there, but I can't hear it. I do have a 160 stat in as I do quite a lot of parades and slow cruises. Also before I blocked off the heat riser passages in the factory intake, I was getting fuel evaporation. Blocking the riser and adding a 3/4" fiber spacer stopped that issue. I will go back to a 180 stat when I put the motor back together. Good tip!

As for the distributor, I do have a guy nearby who has a distributor machine and knows how to use it. I may just go aftermarket as I'm not into the concours thing, but do like the original look.

Geoff.

aka Stanglover.

 

[c9zx]

Assuming the static compression ratio is 10.56, I get a dynamic ratio of 7.83 which should be fine if premium pump gas is used. It is about a half point higher than I'd use with iron heads and that cam. However, the DCR is an indicator, it is not an exact number indicating resistance to detonation. Things like combustion chamber shape, hot spots, and piston deck height play into the equation. Have you done a compression check on all 8 cylinders?

Chuck

 

[Stanglover]

Assuming the static compression ratio is 10.56, I get a dynamic ratio of 7.83 which should be fine if premium pump gas is used. It is about a half point higher than I'd use with iron heads and that cam. However, the DCR is an indicator, it is not an exact number indicating resistance to detonation. Things like combustion chamber shape, hot spots, and piston deck height play into the equation. Have you done a compression check on all 8 cylinders?

Chuck

Thanks Chuck, The best gas I can get here is Shell 91 that does NOT have ethanol in it. I can get 94 from Petro-Can, used to be Sunoco, but since the take over, 10% ethanol was added. Ethanol is a big con if you ask me and really has very little value other than to screw us. That's just my opinion.

I did do a compression pressure check, lost the paper I wrote it down on, but the range was between 195 and 210psi. The heads are D0AE-GA which are supposed to be about 62.8cc. Obviously as castings, the actual volume can and likely do vary which would account for differences. Could be leakage too I know. I don't have the equipment to do a leak-down test.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the dynamic number whereas the chart asks for rod length @5.778" and intake closing point, ABDC @.050 lift plus 15 deg 28+15 =43??. Your knowledge here would be very helpful.

The actual deck height is a bit of a guess. Stock was .028". I do not know what was milled off either block or heads in truing, but as a retired machinist, I would think 3-5 thou off each. The KB177 are .020" higher, so that would put the deck at about .003 -.005.It was never measured or at least passed on to me. Other variables could be in there too I know. The gasket is compressed at .039" (ish)

At the end of the day, the info I need is the best piston to build a 10.0:1 engine that I can run all day on 91 octane fuel and what setting should I aim for on a distributor, stock or otherwise.

Thank you again,

Geoff.

 

[barnett468]

.

it is impossible to give you an accurate answer without your current head cc and the deck height and the piston volume.

obviously, if you put a piston in that has a 20 cc dish in it, it will not detonate, however, if you want the best and most accurate info, and the most power, we need these numbers.

if the new pistons are below the deck and you dont want to mill the block, you can buy thinner head gaskets from cometic . . they make .036" and .027" . . i would use the one that gets you closest to, but no less than .035" quench/squish clearance . . more than .042 is getting a little big.

valve lift has absolutely nothing to do with the intake closing time . . the cam card should tell you exactly what it is and you posted it is 72 degrees abdc.

the calculators for dynamic compression are estimates . . you can have two different cams with the same ivc time but both can have different dynamic compression if other things such as overlap and lift etc are different.

there is a clip in the top of the dist shaft that holds the mechanical advance unit on . . remove the points plate then that clip then lok at the advance unit . . there will be a slot on both sides around 1/2" long . . on top of the slot there will be a number . . one side will be higher than the other . . they are often 10 on one side and 12 or 15 on the other . . there will be an arm in just one of the slots . . this limits the advance . . if you double the number on the slot, that ill be how much mechanical advance it will add when the limiting arm is in that slot.

in your case, with around 9.5 compression and .035 to .042 quench/squish clearance, i would put the arm in the 10 slot if you have one, then remove the heavier/stiffer of the two advance springs and replace it with a mr gasket 925d spring . . i would then set my initial timing to 10 degrees btdc and try that.

if you need to change the limiting arm to the other slot, simply lift up on the advance unit after you removed the clip in the top of the shaft.

disconnect and plug the vacuum advance unit until your car runs perfectly then set it to add only 5 to 6 degrees of advance . . if it is not adjustable you will need to buy an adjustable one and plug it into ported vacuum.

.

it

 

[c9zx]

Assuming the static compression ratio is 10.56, I get a dynamic ratio of 7.83 which should be fine if premium pump gas is used. It is about a half point higher than I'd use with iron heads and that cam. However, the DCR is an indicator, it is not an exact number indicating resistance to detonation. Things like combustion chamber shape, hot spots, and piston deck height play into the equation. Have you done a compression check on all 8 cylinders?

Chuck

Thanks Chuck, The best gas I can get here is Shell 91 that does NOT have ethanol in it. I can get 94 from Petro-Can, used to be Sunoco, but since the take over, 10% ethanol was added. Ethanol is a big con if you ask me and really has very little value other than to screw us. That's just my opinion.

I did do a compression pressure check, lost the paper I wrote it down on, but the range was between 195 and 210psi. The heads are D0AE-GA which are supposed to be about 62.8cc. Obviously as castings, the actual volume can and likely do vary which would account for differences. Could be leakage too I know. I don't have the equipment to do a leak-down test.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the dynamic number whereas the chart asks for rod length @5.778" and intake closing point, ABDC @.050 lift plus 15 deg 28+15 =43??. Your knowledge here would be very helpful.

The actual deck height is a bit of a guess. Stock was .028". I do not know what was milled off either block or heads in truing, but as a retired machinist, I would think 3-5 thou off each. The KB177 are .020" higher, so that would put the deck at about .003 -.005.It was never measured or at least passed on to me. Other variables could be in there too I know. The gasket is compressed at .039" (ish)

At the end of the day, the info I need is the best piston to build a 10.0:1 engine that I can run all day on 91 octane fuel and what setting should I aim for on a distributor, stock or otherwise.

Thank you again,

Geoff.

I calculated the DCR using the Wallace racing calculator (online). I first calculated the Intake closing point like this, Lobe Separation Angle (LSA) is 117-107=10, divided by two=5, 107+5=112 LSA (same as averaging 117 and 107). ADV. INT. Duration divided by two + LSA - any ground in advance, -180=Intake closing point in degrees.

So, 282/2=141+112-0-180=73 degrees after bottom dead center, I assumed 0 degrees ground in advance.

Ethanol in gasoline is a giant scam perpetrated by ignorant governments, corn producers, and refiners. A casual analysis of the FACTS reveals this very quickly. I'll stop there so I don't get a warning.

As to pistons, any quality forged 4032 aluminum flat top piston and ring package will work assuming proper gaps and installation. My current personal favorite is Mahle, if they have what you need. In my opinion their quality and machining tolerances are superior. They are relatively light and their ring lands and ring packages are superior (the ring land is a compression sealing surface). Others would be JE/SRP, Diamond, even Sealed power is fine for what you are doing.

Any piston replacement will almost certainly require rebalancing the rotating assembly.

After writing all of the above, I re-read you post on compression test results. A variance of 7 percent means the ring sealing (and valve sealing) is still good. You may just need to get a proper curve in the distributor. As to general distributor calibration; Initial timing with no mechanical advance in play (very low idle speed) set to 16. Total mechanical advance set to 20 degrees for a total of 36 degrees mechanical advance. All mechanical advance should be in by about 2700-2800 RPM (I'm assuming you are not using a 2.78ish rear gear). If vacuum advance is used, limit it to 8-10 degrees. You are fortunate to have access to someone who knows how to curve a distributor.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing and the results. Chuck

 

[Stanglover]

Assuming the static compression ratio is 10.56, I get a dynamic ratio of 7.83 which should be fine if premium pump gas is used. It is about a half point higher than I'd use with iron heads and that cam. However, the DCR is an indicator, it is not an exact number indicating resistance to detonation. Things like combustion chamber shape, hot spots, and piston deck height play into the equation. Have you done a compression check on all 8 cylinders?

Chuck

Thanks Chuck, The best gas I can get here is Shell 91 that does NOT have ethanol in it. I can get 94 from Petro-Can, used to be Sunoco, but since the take over, 10% ethanol was added. Ethanol is a big con if you ask me and really has very little value other than to screw us. That's just my opinion.

I did do a compression pressure check, lost the paper I wrote it down on, but the range was between 195 and 210psi. The heads are D0AE-GA which are supposed to be about 62.8cc. Obviously as castings, the actual volume can and likely do vary which would account for differences. Could be leakage too I know. I don't have the equipment to do a leak-down test.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the dynamic number whereas the chart asks for rod length @5.778" and intake closing point, ABDC @.050 lift plus 15 deg 28+15 =43??. Your knowledge here would be very helpful.

The actual deck height is a bit of a guess. Stock was .028". I do not know what was milled off either block or heads in truing, but as a retired machinist, I would think 3-5 thou off each. The KB177 are .020" higher, so that would put the deck at about .003 -.005.It was never measured or at least passed on to me. Other variables could be in there too I know. The gasket is compressed at .039" (ish)

At the end of the day, the info I need is the best piston to build a 10.0:1 engine that I can run all day on 91 octane fuel and what setting should I aim for on a distributor, stock or otherwise.

Thank you again,

Geoff.

I calculated the DCR using the Wallace racing calculator (online). I first calculated the Intake closing point like this, Lobe Separation Angle (LSA) is 117-107=10, divided by two=5, 107+5=112 LSA (same as averaging 117 and 107). ADV. INT. Duration divided by two + LSA - any ground in advance, -180=Intake closing point in degrees.

So, 282/2=141+112-0-180=73 degrees after bottom dead center, I assumed 0 degrees ground in advance.

Ethanol in gasoline is a giant scam perpetrated by ignorant governments, corn producers, and refiners. A casual analysis of the FACTS reveals this very quickly. I'll stop there so I don't get a warning.

As to pistons, any quality forged 4032 aluminum flat top piston and ring package will work assuming proper gaps and installation. My current personal favorite is Mahle, if they have what you need. In my opinion their quality and machining tolerances are superior. They are relatively light and their ring lands and ring packages are superior (the ring land is a compression sealing surface). Others would be JE/SRP, Diamond, even Sealed power is fine for what you are doing.

Any piston replacement will almost certainly require rebalancing the rotating assembly.

After writing all of the above, I re-read you post on compression test results. A variance of 7 percent means the ring sealing (and valve sealing) is still good. You may just need to get a proper curve in the distributor. As to general distributor calibration; Initial timing with no mechanical advance in play (very low idle speed) set to 16. Total mechanical advance set to 20 degrees for a total of 36 degrees mechanical advance. All mechanical advance should be in by about 2700-2800 RPM (I'm assuming you are not using a 2.78ish rear gear). If vacuum advance is used, limit it to 8-10 degrees. You are fortunate to have access to someone who knows how to curve a distributor.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing and the results. Chuck

Chuck, I can't thank you ( and everyone else) enough for your time and effort you have put into this issue. I will certainly be taking your suggestions into consideration when I do the re-build. I am hoping that my date correct original block is still salvageable. If not I have 2 other blocks that are at least date appropriate. There is no VIN number on my block, so close may have to good enough.

The car has a 3.25:1 open rear end which is hard to believe Ford put open difs in the Mach1's

I will post the results when I get the re-build done and that likely won't be till Spring as it's about time to put the car away for winter. I will also post some more pictures to my album when I get time to work on it.

Thanks again,

Geoff.

 

[Mister 4x4]

My engine sat dormant for 30ish years, with #4 and #8 seized in the holes. It would've only required .020" bores if it weren't for the rust and scarring in the cylinder walls (.060" got me through). So, mine is still "numbers matching" as well (except for the AOD instead of the FMX, that is).





Your engine should be fine, in other words. ::thumb::

Those are the KB hyper pistons, as well.

And Yes... I know it's the 'wrong' color. :whistling:

 

[Stanglover]

My engine sat dormant for 30ish years, with #4 and #8 seized in the holes. It would've only required .020" bores if it weren't for the rust and scarring in the cylinder walls (.060" got me through). So, mine is still "numbers matching" as well (except for the AOD instead of the FMX, that is).

Your engine should be fine, in other words. ::thumb::

Those are the KB hyper pistons, as well.

And Yes... I know it's the 'wrong' color. :whistling:

Hi Eric, Thank to you to for your time. Interesting that you went to .060 over. I thought that would be pushing it for a Cleveland, but I guess if there is no core shift and the thickness is consistent, why not!

I am hesitant to go that far, but yes it is an option to save the block... at least for a while. Also notice you have a valve stem guide plate installed for a roller cam. Nice pictures by the way. If you're building a custom, why not chose a color you like, nothing wrong with that.

Geoff.

 

[Mister 4x4]

Hi Eric, Thank to you to for your time. Interesting that you went to .060 over. I thought that would be pushing it for a Cleveland, but I guess if there is no core shift and the thickness is consistent, why not!

I am hesitant to go that far, but yes it is an option to save the block... at least for a while. Also notice you have a valve stem guide plate installed for a roller cam. Nice pictures by the way. If you're building a custom, why not chose a color you like, nothing wrong with that.

Geoff.

The machinist initially went .020" and noticed scars on the cylinder walls of #4 & #8 from where the pistons had been rusted in-place for so long. Then went .040", and although diminished, the scars were still there. So, they went .060" and the scars were finally gone. The next step would've been sleeving the offending cylinders, but I wasn't so keen on that. Now that I know more about the sleeving process, and seeing the factory cross-hatching in the cylinder walls of my '95 Honda Civic with 192K miles, I'm thinking I'll be OK to sleeve ALL of the cylinders if this engine gets worn out in the future.

Anyway, the machinist called me between each step, of course, and asked what I wanted to do - since I'd noticed the .060" KB pistons on Summit Racing's website, I didn't have any problems going that big. A lot of folks jumped in with their opinions about Clevelands not handling .060" bores, but I choose to believe that if it was such a problem, there wouldn't be .060" pistons so readily available. They key is to keeping the engine running at consistent temperatures within normal operating ranges - frequent and extreme overheating compounded with the larger bores will kill the Clevelands quicker than anything.

I actually performed the "Pantera" cooling trick a few weekends ago, and it made a big difference - the temp gauge needle so far hasn't made it past the space between the "O" and "R" of "NORMAL." Before I made the change, if I left it idling too long, it would get a LOT warmer (up to the "A" and beyond), mostly because the local parts store gave me a non-Cleveland thermostat, so the cooling system wasn't working right from the beginning. A new thermostat and bypass restrictor plate from West Coast Cougar Classics solved that issue.

The color is actually Duplicolor "Old Ford Blue" engine enamel. I just happened to grab it, rather than the Corporate Blue - which honestly, appeals to me better than the Corporate Blue.