Oil pump problems on 351 C engine

[Dallas]

Dear Friend

I've pulled out the oil pump to change it new on my 1971 Mustang with 351 Cleveland egine and I've found the oil pump shaft in terrible conditions

I post some pictures of the shaft in the middle and in the end and seems terribly worned out

I think that the terrible sound that I was listening when the engine was running ( a sort of sound like griding in the low part of the engine ), was because the pump didn't lubricate at all the the bearings and the camshaft

Do you think that ( I know that it's not easy to say on a forum ), the engine could be damaged in a serious conditions ? Here in Italy there are a bunch of so called machanics that don't know nothing at all about American V8 engine and for this reason, they don't know how to fix it, repair and they can cause damages instead to fix it. They told me that probably the engime was gone, completely broken and I should spend around 8000 USD to fix it !!! Of course I told them go to f...themself an I'd like to ask you if it could be possbile to have a bad damages or I could could solve the issue simply changing the pump

Thanks

Here the pics

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/ReggionellEmilia-20140404-00525.jpg

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/ReggionellEmilia-20140404-00523.jpg

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/ReggionellEmilia-20140404-00524.jpg

 

[Kermit 460]

I got lucky on a 302 years ago that had a oil pump shaft failure . I got it shut down fairly quickly , changed the pump and shaft and got lucky the engine was fine . I don't think you've got much too lose by putting in a new pump and shaft to try it .

 

[JimNiki]

±1 on that. Nothing to lose. Tell us how long the engine was turning with this bad noise ... Minutes? Hours?

 

[turtle5353]

Cant really say till you get the motor out and check it. There's a very good chance something got damaged. But you might get lucky and put the new oil pump and shaft in and be fine. I say put it together and try it. If its no good wait till you get to the US and have it rebuilt.

 

[mjlan]

How did the oil pump driveshaft get worn in the middle? Was the worn out (damaged) end of the driveshaft in the distributor or the oil pump? If you have the oil pan off to replace the pump and driveshaft, I would pull a main cap and a rod cap to see what the bearings look like...

 

[Dallas]

±1 on that. Nothing to lose. Tell us how long the engine was turning with this bad noise ... Minutes? Hours?

Minutes because as soon as I've started to listen the bad noise I immediately shut down the egine

How did the oil pump driveshaft get worn in the middle? Was the worn out (damaged) end of the driveshaft in the distributor or the oil pump? If you have the oil pan off to replace the pump and driveshaft, I would pull a main cap and a rod cap to see what the bearings look like...

I think the damaged part at the end of the shaft was in the oil pan, but since the ******* italian mechanic pulled out the oil pan and gave me back the car with the shaft took off I'm not sure

He changed new distributor and when I come back home I started to hear the bad noise, so I brought back the car with a truck and he pulled off the pan, the oil pump shaft ( not the pump ) and started to tell me ( because he would like to buy my car for few and re sale ), that the engine was gone and the work to rebuild it was very costly ( around 8000 USD ), but I will installl the new oil pump and I will check, since the car was not running since I started to heear the engine, maybe the damages are not bad.

I don't know how the shaft was damaged in the middle

I wil try to replace the oil pump by myself ( the mechanic asked me 700 EURO that's mean 1000 USD to replace it !!!), but I have to use a jack and I hope not to die squeezed under the car if the Stang will foll down

 

[Dallas]

Sorry I have another question

Which is the correct way to istalll the shaft of the oil pump ?

The part with the round washer has to be connected to the oil pump side or to the distributor side ?

After the installing of the pump how can I set the timing properly ? I don't have any electronical tools but someone told me that I have to allign the distributor rotor with the cylinder number 1

Is that correct

Then I have to fill the engine with fresh new engine oil and try to cranck

Is that correct ?

Sorry for the silly questions but I'm not an expert

In attached a picture of the new oil pump shaft

Thanks

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/MEL-IS-84A_xl.jpg

±1 on that. Nothing to lose. Tell us how long the engine was turning with this bad noise ... Minutes? Hours?

Minutes because as soon as I've started to listen the bad noise I immediately shut down the egine

How did the oil pump driveshaft get worn in the middle? Was the worn out (damaged) end of the driveshaft in the distributor or the oil pump? If you have the oil pan off to replace the pump and driveshaft, I would pull a main cap and a rod cap to see what the bearings look like...

I think the damaged part at the end of the shaft was in the oil pan, but since the ******* italian mechanic pulled out the oil pan and gave me back the car with the shaft took off I'm not sure

He changed new distributor and when I come back home I started to hear the bad noise, so I brought back the car with a truck and he pulled off the pan, the oil pump shaft ( not the pump ) and started to tell me ( because he would like to buy my car for few and re sale ), that the engine was gone and the work to rebuild it was very costly ( around 8000 USD ), but I will installl the new oil pump and I will check, since the car was not running since I started to heear the engine, maybe the damages are not bad.

I don't know how the shaft was damaged in the middle

I wil try to replace the oil pump by myself ( the mechanic asked me 700 EURO that's mean 1000 USD to replace it !!!), but I have to use a jack and I hope not to die squeezed under the car if the Stang will foll down

 

[MechEng]

For installing the distributor you will want to crank the motor over until Cylinder 1 is at TDC, the easiest way to do this is to pull the plug out of cylinder 1 and place a rod in the hole, crank the engine over until the rod just starts to drop back into the engine. This is TDC on cylinder 1. (This should also line up with the 0 Degree mark on your harmonic balancer!) Now install the distributor with the rotor at the cylinder 1 position, it may shift a little bit, as the gear engages, but should be close. This is a static timing of the engine that should be close enough for you to be able to get the engine to start and then do dynamic timing.

As fas as which way the shaft goes, I don't know on that one. Sorry!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Don C]

The washer should go at the top, so when the distributor is pulled the shaft doesn't pull out of the pump, which is probably what your D-A mechanic did. Then he didn't get the shaft back into the oil pump, which is why it's worn the way it is.

 

[jbojo]

The washer should go at the top, so when the distributor is pulled the shaft doesn't pull out of the pump, which is probably what your D-A mechanic did. Then he didn't get the shaft back into the oil pump, which is why it's worn the way it is.

+1 here. Attached a pic on how it should look.

 

[Dallas]

Here some pix that I took when I pulled off the distributor

I cannot see the washer but I didn't find any metal parts or debrits in the oil pan

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/DSCF0832.jpg

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/DSCF0831.jpg

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx252/BlueGhost1972/DSCF0828.jpg

What I've see is that the rod and is dry but the strange things is that when I used to check the engine oil level it was perfect

I hope to solve everything changing the oil pump

Thanks a lot for your support and advices

The washer should go at the top, so when the distributor is pulled the shaft doesn't pull out of the pump, which is probably what your D-A mechanic did. Then he didn't get the shaft back into the oil pump, which is why it's worn the way it is.

+1 here. Attached a pic on how it should look.

 

[Paul of MO]

This mechanic owes you the cost of a new engine or an engine rebuild.

I would not allow him to do the work because he lied to you and choose not to be a man and be responsible for his mistake.

He put the oil pump drive shaft into the bottom of the distributor but did not get it into the top of the oil pump.

The shaft was in at an angle and was grinding against the block causing the damage to the middle of the shaft. If you look at your engine you will find matching damage to the block under where the hole for the oil pump drive shaft goes through below the distributor.

The damage to the end of the shaft was caused by the shaft spinning against the side of the oil pump - there will be matching marks on the oil pump.

With the shaft not in the oil pump you ran your engine with no oil pressure.

His offer to buy your vehicle was an attempt to get you to go away happy. He gets your car, he fixes his mistake, he sells your car, he makes money and does not have to pay you for his mistake.

He needs to write you a check or explain why he should not write you a check to a Magistrate.

He has stated that this payment to you should be for 8000.00 dollars US - he has already quoted you the cost to repair your engine.

The Magistrate will certainly agree.

Show him this post and see how he reacts.

- Paul Wheeler

SAE Certified Engine Mechanic

Former Professional Ford Engine Builder - specializing in 351 Cleveland

Someone who has made this exact mistake. (once and only once)

 

[Dallas]

Dear Paul

Thanks for your exaustive explanation but the problem is not only the mechhanic but the italian law system

It's several months that I argue with the mechanic but he keep on tellling me that he is not responsible and here in italy, sadly, to start a legal cause ( in this case civil cause and not penal ), you have to hire a lawyer, anticipate the expenese ( around 2500 euro that means roughly 3000 USD ) and since it will be a civil legal procedure wait some years. The legal system in italy it's extremely slow

The mechanic also told me to go ahead with the lawyer if I'd like to and he will answer to me with his attorney

This is one of the reason why within this year I will move to live and work to Los Angeles, California; I'm so sick of italy !!!

Anyway now I want to try to install thhe new oil pump, shaft and pick up screen hoping that the engine could run again because I have lots of potential customer interested in buying my Stang but at least the engine has to run. Once that I will be in Los Angeles I willl try to find another Stang

I was thinking also to bring my Stang with me to the US but it would be very complicated for the import of the vehicle because now it's registered with italian paperworks

Since when I started to hear the grindin noise I didn't use my Stang I hope that the engine could be not completely gone

Thanks again

Dallas

This mechanic owes you the cost of a new engine or an engine rebuild.

I would not allow him to do the work because he lied to you and choose not to be a man and be responsible for his mistake.

He put the oil pump drive shaft into the bottom of the distributor but did not get it into the top of the oil pump.

The shaft was in at an angle and was grinding against the block causing the damage to the middle of the shaft. If you look at your engine you will find matching damage to the block under where the hole for the oil pump drive shaft goes through below the distributor.

The damage to the end of the shaft was caused by the shaft spinning against the side of the oil pump - there will be matching marks on the oil pump.

With the shaft not in the oil pump you ran your engine with no oil pressure.

His offer to buy your vehicle was an attempt to get you to go away happy. He gets your car, he fixes his mistake, he sells your car, he makes money and does not have to pay you for his mistake.

He needs to write you a check or explain why he should not write you a check to a Magistrate.

He has stated that this payment to you should be for 8000.00 dollars US - he has already quoted you the cost to repair your engine.

The Magistrate will certainly agree.

Show him this post and see how he reacts.

- Paul Wheeler

SAE Certified Engine Mechanic

Former Professional Ford Engine Builder - specializing in 351 Cleveland

Someone who has made this exact mistake. (once and only once)

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

You may or may not have damaged your engine to the point that it will need to be overhauled. Put in an oil pump, shaft and pickup and give it a try. Bearings are soft and wear quickly when not being oiled, but crankshafts are pretty smooth and you might get away with it. Everything else likely will have survived the low oil pressure without any significant wear or damage if the bearings made it through the ordeal without too much damage. You could pull a main bearing cap and have a look while you are changing the pump. It will be a knuckle buster for sure, but if the bearings are shot, then you know where you stand.

 

[Paul of MO]

You should put in a new oil pump shaft, your oil pump should be OK.

This can be put in from above though the distributor hole.

Find a 1/4 deep socket that fits the hex head on the oil pump shaft and is thin enough to fit down in the small hole.

Put an extension on the socket.

Use some tape to hold the shaft and socket loosely together and run the end of the tape up the side of the extension. Just enough tape to keep the shaft from falling out of the socket.

Put a blob of thick grease on the oil pump end of the shaft. The taped end should be very clean and very dry.

Carefully put the shaft down the distributor hole and gently turn and wiggle it until you feel it engage into the hole in the top of the oil pump.

It should feel like it is straight up and down and not off to the side.

Put a ratchet on the extension and turn it counter clockwise to force oil through engine and to confirm it is in the oil pump correctly.

This will get oil back through the engine before you start it again.

Pull the tape off of the socket and very carefully pull the socket up and away from the oil pump shaft. Make sure the shaft does not pull out of the oil pump. The blob of grease should keep the shaft stuck in the oil pump hole.

If this does not work you can always drop the oil pan, remove the pump and put it in from below. If you do it from below then be sure to put the little ring on the shaft so it can not be pulled out from above.

Install the distributor correctly (#1 piston at top dead center and the distributor rotor pointing to the number one plug wire - google it for instructions)

Cross your fingers and start the car.

If you only ran it a minute or so and shut it off because the noise you should be OK.

Please keep us posted.

I would also let the mechanic know that you are going to make him famous on the internet if he does not make it right.

- Paul

 

[Dallas]

Thanks a lot Paul

Today I've received the new oil pump, middle shaft and pick up made by Melling I've bought it from Summit

In the few nex days I will try to install them by myself

The only problem is that I will have to use a jack to lift my Stang and I hope to do it well without any disaster like be killed by my Stang that fallen down while I'm doing the job

The oil pan was alredy pulled out by the DA italian so called mechanic so after the replace the oil pump I will have to put fresh new oil on the engine am I right ?

Thanks again

Fran

You should put in a new oil pump shaft, your oil pump should be OK.

This can be put in from above though the distributor hole.

Find a 1/4 deep socket that fits the hex head on the oil pump shaft and is thin enough to fit down in the small hole.

Put an extension on the socket.

Use some tape to hold the shaft and socket loosely together and run the end of the tape up the side of the extension. Just enough tape to keep the shaft from falling out of the socket.

Put a blob of thick grease on the oil pump end of the shaft. The taped end should be very clean and very dry.

Carefully put the shaft down the distributor hole and gently turn and wiggle it until you feel it engage into the hole in the top of the oil pump.

It should feel like it is straight up and down and not off to the side.

Put a ratchet on the extension and turn it counter clockwise to force oil through engine and to confirm it is in the oil pump correctly.

This will get oil back through the engine before you start it again.

Pull the tape off of the socket and very carefully pull the socket up and away from the oil pump shaft. Make sure the shaft does not pull out of the oil pump. The blob of grease should keep the shaft stuck in the oil pump hole.

If this does not work you can always drop the oil pan, remove the pump and put it in from below. If you do it from below then be sure to put the little ring on the shaft so it can not be pulled out from above.

Install the distributor correctly (#1 piston at top dead center and the distributor rotor pointing to the number one plug wire - google it for instructions)

Cross your fingers and start the car.

If you only ran it a minute or so and shut it off because the noise you should be OK.

Please keep us posted.

I would also let the mechanic know that you are going to make him famous on the internet if he does not make it right.

- Paul

 

[Paul of MO]

Fran,

Once it is all back together fill it with fresh oil, also fill the oil filter with oil before you put it on.

Before you try to actually start and run the engine take off the coil wire and crank the engine for 15 or 20 seconds - watch for the oil light to go out or if you have a gauge make sure it shows pressure.

Put the coil wire back on an then start the car.

Best of luck,

- Paul

 

[will e]

If you don't have jack stands buy some. At the very least pull off the front tires and put them under the car so if the jack fails you have a backup.

I am thinking happy thoughts for you! I hope your quick actions saved the engine.

 

[Thomas]

I would absolutely crank the oil pump manually to bring up the oil pressure before I mounted the distributor

Because you have probably completely dry bearings, rocker arms, etc. in your engine.

Also note that when the crankshaft is at TDC, it is not sure that it is cyl 1 That fires may also be cyl 6 that fires

As the crankshaft rotates two revolutions while the camshaft rotates only 1 revolution

/ / Thomas