TDC identification

[kevken1959]

Thanks, I counted the ten hash marks as well and was fairly confident, but not certain I was at TDC. Still going to clean it up a bit more. I will definitely invest in a remote starter, great advice. Found one at summit racing for $12. There is about 3/8” - 1/2” of rotational play turning my rotor, so I’m thinking the gears my be worn, plus I can’t start the engine anymore. So I’m trying to get things perfect. Upgrading to a pertronix electronic distributor.

 Just my opinion based on what I've learned from my own experience with timing, but I wouldn't waste my money on a Pertronix distributor. My local auto parts store has dropped that line because of too many issues with them. Not to say there have not been improvements since, but I think I would lean toward a reman Motorcraft or Cardone Select new Ford (style) dizzy with a Pertronix Ignitor II module and matching coil. DO NOT be tempted to go with an Ignitor III in a Ford. Unless Pertronix have redesigned the mechanical "bearing" between the two plates, you will have timing problems. I have posted on my experience many times on this. In my case Pertronix took it back and replaced the III with a II and coil and after learning how to rebuild and recurve the distributor to run 16* of initial mechanical timing, I couldn't be happier. I think the problem with most timing on 351C's is they were set retarded at 6* for emissions reasons, when in fact they need much more initial. HO engines were set at 16*.

I'm not sure what you have engine wise, but there is a lot more to getting timing right than meets the eye. I learned the hard expensive way, which is why I tend to be a bit hard on others. All I'm saying is be careful, do your homework, ask a load of questions from the much more experienced guys here before you dive in and start pulling that distributor out.

Again just from my timing wows, the reman. Motorcraft I bought was built for an initial of 6* as the limit slot was called an 15L, which equates to 30 degrees on the crank. If you want to run 14-16 degrees of initial, the max mechanical advance is 34-36 degrees, which means you only need 20 degrees on the crank or an 10L limit slot. I actually stripped my distributor and welded the slot and recut it to give me the required advance,. That slot width is .410". If yours has an 13L slot, you might get away with using a small piece of 3/16" nylon tube slipped over the post, which will do much the same thing and far simpler.

Hope that didn't scare you too much, but it is very important to get it right and I'm afraid a lot of these so-called drop-in aftermarket distributors are far from plug-n-play.

I'm posting a picture of a cam showing a 15L slot and a Cardone Select that I did as a back-up so you can see the limit slot. Next is springs and tension to get the curve just right, but that for later maybe.

EDIT: I didn't mention that my 351 C 4V with only 10:1 pistons still had a lot of spark rattle on 91 octane fuel before I corrected the amount of mechanical advance. I also only put in about 6* of vacuum advance. I ditched the dual vac canister as the retard side (rear tube) is not needed. It pulls up to 6K now with no rattle.

Hi Andy. I posted a similar thread here about my problems with the timing on my 72 R code convertible. You seem to be so knowledgeable on the subjet your commentary goes a little over my head. I'm going to  try to send you a Facebook link discussing the problem. Hopefully you can open it and give me your feedback. Thanks! Kevin.

Scroll down to my post (Kevin Kennedy)........https://www.facebook.com/groups/48191849267/

 

[kevken1959]

Thanks, I counted the ten hash marks as well and was fairly confident, but not certain I was at TDC. Still going to clean it up a bit more. I will definitely invest in a remote starter, great advice. Found one at summit racing for $12. There is about 3/8” - 1/2” of rotational play turning my rotor, so I’m thinking the gears my be worn, plus I can’t start the engine anymore. So I’m trying to get things perfect. Upgrading to a pertronix electronic distributor.

 Just my opinion based on what I've learned from my own experience with timing, but I wouldn't waste my money on a Pertronix distributor. My local auto parts store has dropped that line because of too many issues with them. Not to say there have not been improvements since, but I think I would lean toward a reman Motorcraft or Cardone Select new Ford (style) dizzy with a Pertronix Ignitor II module and matching coil. DO NOT be tempted to go with an Ignitor III in a Ford. Unless Pertronix have redesigned the mechanical "bearing" between the two plates, you will have timing problems. I have posted on my experience many times on this. In my case Pertronix took it back and replaced the III with a II and coil and after learning how to rebuild and recurve the distributor to run 16* of initial mechanical timing, I couldn't be happier. I think the problem with most timing on 351C's is they were set retarded at 6* for emissions reasons, when in fact they need much more initial. HO engines were set at 16*.

I'm not sure what you have engine wise, but there is a lot more to getting timing right than meets the eye. I learned the hard expensive way, which is why I tend to be a bit hard on others. All I'm saying is be careful, do your homework, ask a load of questions from the much more experienced guys here before you dive in and start pulling that distributor out.

Again just from my timing wows, the reman. Motorcraft I bought was built for an initial of 6* as the limit slot was called an 15L, which equates to 30 degrees on the crank. If you want to run 14-16 degrees of initial, the max mechanical advance is 34-36 degrees, which means you only need 20 degrees on the crank or an 10L limit slot. I actually stripped my distributor and welded the slot and recut it to give me the required advance,. That slot width is .410". If yours has an 13L slot, you might get away with using a small piece of 3/16" nylon tube slipped over the post, which will do much the same thing and far simpler.

Hope that didn't scare you too much, but it is very important to get it right and I'm afraid a lot of these so-called drop-in aftermarket distributors are far from plug-n-play.

I'm posting a picture of a cam showing a 15L slot and a Cardone Select that I did as a back-up so you can see the limit slot. Next is springs and tension to get the curve just right, but that for later maybe.

EDIT: I didn't mention that my 351 C 4V with only 10:1 pistons still had a lot of spark rattle on 91 octane fuel before I corrected the amount of mechanical advance. I also only put in about 6* of vacuum advance. I ditched the dual vac canister as the retard side (rear tube) is not needed. It pulls up to 6K now with no rattle.

Hi Andy. I posted a similar thread here about my problems with the timing on my 72 R code convertible. You seem to be so knowledgeable on the subjet your commentary goes a little over my head. I'm going to  try to send you a Facebook link discussing the problem. Hopefully you can open it and give me your feedback. Thanks! Kevin.

Scroll down to my post (Kevin Kennedy)........https://www.facebook.com/groups/48191849267/

So copy and paste the URL:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/48191849267/

 

[kevken1959]

I think I made a mistake posting so I'm trying again

Hi Andy. I posted a similar thread here about my problems with the timing on my 72 R code convertible. You seem to be so knowledgeable on the subjet your commentary goes a little over my head. I'm going to try to send you a Facebook link discussing the problem. Hopefully you can open it and give me your feedback. Thanks! Kevin.

Scroll down to my post (Kevin Kennedy)........https://www.facebook.com/groups/48191849267/

So copy and paste the URL:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/48191849267/

 

[kevken1959]

Hi Andy. Here's a link to my post on this site so you can chime in. It may be a mute point as I read that you don't run a dual port distributor. BUT, IF YOU DID, would you kick the initial advance up or keep it at what seems to me to be a negative 5 degrees (5 degrees retard) at idle with all the vacuum lines hooked up the way the schematic recommends?

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-timing-and-carb-help

 

[Stanglover]

Kevin, I think you got MY post mixed up with our new friend Andy's post. Unfortunately as you double posted, it took up a lot of space, but your link might be very useful although I did not go through it all. Hopefully Andy will get to the bottom of his issue, but it does sound like it's going to turn out a bit more than just a pooched distributor. I hope not for his sake.

One minor point I would expand on is the dual vacuum canister has one diaphragm for advance, the forward tube, and one for RETARDING the timing, which is the rear tube. This was intended to retard the timing via the temp / vac valve to cool the motor down in hot weather or stop-go traffic. So unless you need it for concours reasons, you don't need it at all unless you do live in a boiling hot climate! It's your choice whether to use it or not.

Stanglover.

Oh! by the way, all my "knowledge" is from my 9 years of working on and finding solutions to MY car's problems with a LOT of help over the last 2 + years from the many very knowledgeable members on 7173Mustangs.com. It's to all those guys I owe many thanks. I am merely passing on what I've learned.

 

[kevken1959]

Kevin, I think you got MY post mixed up with our new friend Andy's post. Unfortunately as you double posted, it took up a lot of space, but your link might be very useful although I did not go through it all. Hopefully Andy will get to the bottom of his issue, but it does sound like it's going to turn out a bit more than just a pooched distributor. I hope not for his sake.

One minor point I would expand on is the dual vacuum canister has one diaphragm for advance, the forward tube, and one for RETARDING the timing, which is the rear tube. This was intended to retard the timing via the temp / vac valve to cool the motor down in hot weather or stop-go traffic. So unless you need it for concours reasons, you don't need it at all unless you do live in a boiling hot climate! It's your choice whether to use it or not.

Stanglover.

Oh! by the way, all my "knowledge" is from my 9 years of working on and finding solutions to MY car's problems with a LOT of help over the last 2 + years from the many very knowledgeable members on 7173Mustangs.com. It's to all those guys I owe many thanks. I am merely passing on what I've learned.

Oooopppss! Sorry Stanglover I didn't realize I messed that up. And thanks for the info. After comparing the schematics for the 71 Boss 351 and my 72 R code, it seems to me the retard on my 72 is activated ALL the time, whereas on the 71 Boss it only kicks in with the temp switch. The 72 retard connects directly to Manifold vacuum. Check out schematic:

 

[Stanglover]

Kevin, you're forgiven!!

I do know there were many changes from 71 to 72, but all I have reference to is the 71's. (I actually owned a 72 Q code back in 1980, but all the air induction stuff had long been removed. I sold that car with only 42K miles on it in 1991, one of my biggest regrets as it had a transplanted Boss engine in it and I didn't know that until only a couple of years ago. I wondered why it was so damn fast!)

The schematic you show is from the rear, but it is clear to see that there are big differences between the two years. I think Andy should follow the vacuum routing for the 72, but to be honest, if any mods have or are being done, all that emissions stuff is out the window. I would set the engine up to run at it's best unless there are law in your State that it has be conform to.

Merry Christmas and a Happy Mustang New Year to all our readers.

Geoff.

aka Stanglover

I just realized one difference I should mention. On my engine, I run a Holley Street Avenger 670 carb and I use the TIMED vacuum port on the carb, NOT the manifold as I/we don't need 17" of vacuum pulling on the distributor at idle. It should be mechanical only based on what I've learned, although others might disagree.

 

[kevken1959]

Very good advice Geoff! I agree with everything you said. I've been running Cleveland 4Vs almost exclusively for 40 years and always use the timed vacuum port on the carb. That has always worked best for me. This motor in my 1972 R-code convertible is the original born with matching numbers motor. It just had a fresh rebuild with all stock parts. I even had the original factory cam sent out and had it reconditioned. I only have about 200 miles on the motor and can't wait to get out and flog it! It's hard to tell right now, and I feel like it still needs some tuning, but based on the limited driving it does not feel like it is going to "pull" like other slightly modified Clevelands I have owned. I don't think I am going to be happy with the factory spread bore Motorcraft carb. Holleys just work better on these motors. The 3.91 gears also don't lend themselves to highway driving! Maybe the motor just needs some more time to break in. Regarding the break in, I'd appreciate input from other members on what they do with Cleveland refills.

Thanks!

Kevin.

 

[kevken1959]

Very good advice Geoff! I agree with everything you said. I've been running Cleveland 4Vs almost exclusively for 40 years and always use the timed vacuum port on the carb. That has always worked best for me. This motor in my 1972 R-code convertible is the original born with matching numbers motor. It just had a fresh rebuild with all stock parts. I even had the original factory cam sent out and had it reconditioned. I only have about 200 miles on the motor and can't wait to get out and flog it! It's hard to tell right now, and I feel like it still needs some tuning, but based on the limited driving it does not feel like it is going to "pull" like other slightly modified Clevelands I have owned. I don't think I am going to be happy with the factory spread bore Motorcraft carb. Holleys just work better on these motors. The 3.91 gears also don't lend themselves to highway driving! Maybe the motor just needs some more time to break in. Regarding the break in, I'd appreciate input from other members on what they do with Cleveland refills.

Thanks!

Kevin.

I mean "rebuilds"

 

[Stanglover]

Very good advice Geoff! I agree with everything you said. I've been running Cleveland 4Vs almost exclusively for 40 years and always use the timed vacuum port on the carb. That has always worked best for me. This motor in my 1972 R-code convertible is the original born with matching numbers motor. It just had a fresh rebuild with all stock parts. I even had the original factory cam sent out and had it reconditioned. I only have about 200 miles on the motor and can't wait to get out and flog it! It's hard to tell right now, and I feel like it still needs some tuning, but based on the limited driving it does not feel like it is going to "pull" like other slightly modified Clevelands I have owned. I don't think I am going to be happy with the factory spread bore Motorcraft carb. Holleys just work better on these motors. The 3.91 gears also don't lend themselves to highway driving! Maybe the motor just needs some more time to break in. Regarding the break in, I'd appreciate input from other members on what they do with Cleveland refills.

Thanks!

Kevin.

I mean "rebuilds"

  The advice I was given by a good friend who has much knowledge with breaking in motors and that was "drive it like you stole it"

  My motor's cam was broken in on a test stand at the builders, but once in the car, I literally took it out to a quite road near by and floored it to seat the rings. I've had no problems at all and the cylinder pressures are between 185 and 195 lbs across the 8 pots @ 10:1 comp ratio. I'm told the worst thing you can do to an engine without a roller cam is to let it idle on initial start up. Rev it to 3K and keep it there for around 20 minutes. 

 From your list of "goodies" you have clearly been very lucky to find the toys you have. Sounds like quite a good retirement investment. Here in Canada, we were very limited as to what was available to pick up at a good price back in the day. I had a chance to buy a Boss, but when I found the original motor was gone, I passed on it. That's when I bought the Q code............ with a Boss motor in it.

Hope that helps out,

Geoff.

 

[kevken1959]

Very good advice Geoff! I agree with everything you said. I've been running Cleveland 4Vs almost exclusively for 40 years and always use the timed vacuum port on the carb. That has always worked best for me. This motor in my 1972 R-code convertible is the original born with matching numbers motor. It just had a fresh rebuild with all stock parts. I even had the original factory cam sent out and had it reconditioned. I only have about 200 miles on the motor and can't wait to get out and flog it! It's hard to tell right now, and I feel like it still needs some tuning, but based on the limited driving it does not feel like it is going to "pull" like other slightly modified Clevelands I have owned. I don't think I am going to be happy with the factory spread bore Motorcraft carb. Holleys just work better on these motors. The 3.91 gears also don't lend themselves to highway driving! Maybe the motor just needs some more time to break in. Regarding the break in, I'd appreciate input from other members on what they do with Cleveland refills.

Thanks!

Kevin.

I mean "rebuilds"

  The advice I was given by a good friend who has much knowledge with breaking in motors and that was "drive it like you stole it"

  My motor's cam was broken in on a test stand at the builders, but once in the car, I literally took it out to a quite road near by and floored it to seat the rings. I've had no problems at all and the cylinder pressures are between 185 and 195 lbs across the 8 pots @ 10:1 comp ratio. I'm told the worst thing you can do to an engine without a roller cam is to let it idle on initial start up. Rev it to 3K and keep it there for around 20 minutes. 

 From your list of "goodies" you have clearly been very lucky to find the toys you have. Sounds like quite a good retirement investment. Here in Canada, we were very limited as to what was available to pick up at a good price back in the day. I had a chance to buy a Boss, but when I found the original motor was gone, I passed on it. That's when I bought the Q code............ with a Boss motor in it.

Hope that helps out,

Geoff.

  Very good advice indeed Geoff! Luckily my friend who rebuilt the motor is a helicopter and air plane mechanic for "Life Flight" and it sounds like he broke the motor in the right way on a stand after it was rebuilt. Now it's my turn to finish the process. I can't wait till we get some warmer weather down here. Of course, it's nothing like what you guys have to deal with I'm sure

 

[Stanglover]

I mean "rebuilds"

  The advice I was given by a good friend who has much knowledge with breaking in motors and that was "drive it like you stole it"

  My motor's cam was broken in on a test stand at the builders, but once in the car, I literally took it out to a quite road near by and floored it to seat the rings. I've had no problems at all and the cylinder pressures are between 185 and 195 lbs across the 8 pots @ 10:1 comp ratio. I'm told the worst thing you can do to an engine without a roller cam is to let it idle on initial start up. Rev it to 3K and keep it there for around 20 minutes. 

 From your list of "goodies" you have clearly been very lucky to find the toys you have. Sounds like quite a good retirement investment. Here in Canada, we were very limited as to what was available to pick up at a good price back in the day. I had a chance to buy a Boss, but when I found the original motor was gone, I passed on it. That's when I bought the Q code............ with a Boss motor in it.

Hope that helps out,

Geoff.

  Very good advice indeed Geoff! Luckily my friend who rebuilt the motor is a helicopter and air plane mechanic for "Life Flight" and it sounds like he broke the motor in the right way on a stand after it was rebuilt. Now it's my turn to finish the process. I can't wait till we get some warmer weather down here. Of course, it's nothing like what you guys have to deal with I'm sure

 Yeah! This is the first "white Christmas" in a long time. Today is a high of 23 f or  -5 c. Had to send the wife out with the snow-blower!!

Last year, I could have taken the old girl (car) out, but with salt on the roads, thought better of it. It was 50+f and sunny. Cutting the grass crossed my mind as well, but again thought better of it.

 

[kevken1959]

  The advice I was given by a good friend who has much knowledge with breaking in motors and that was "drive it like you stole it"

  My motor's cam was broken in on a test stand at the builders, but once in the car, I literally took it out to a quite road near by and floored it to seat the rings. I've had no problems at all and the cylinder pressures are between 185 and 195 lbs across the 8 pots @ 10:1 comp ratio. I'm told the worst thing you can do to an engine without a roller cam is to let it idle on initial start up. Rev it to 3K and keep it there for around 20 minutes. 

 From your list of "goodies" you have clearly been very lucky to find the toys you have. Sounds like quite a good retirement investment. Here in Canada, we were very limited as to what was available to pick up at a good price back in the day. I had a chance to buy a Boss, but when I found the original motor was gone, I passed on it. That's when I bought the Q code............ with a Boss motor in it.

Hope that helps out,

Geoff.

  Very good advice indeed Geoff! Luckily my friend who rebuilt the motor is a helicopter and air plane mechanic for "Life Flight" and it sounds like he broke the motor in the right way on a stand after it was rebuilt. Now it's my turn to finish the process. I can't wait till we get some warmer weather down here. Of course, it's nothing like what you guys have to deal with I'm sure

 Yeah! This is the first "white Christmas" in a long time. Today is a high of 23 f or  -5 c. Had to send the wife out with the snow-blower!!

Last year, I could have taken the old girl (car) out, but with salt on the roads, thought better of it. It was 50+f and sunny. Cutting the grass crossed my mind as well, but again thought better of it.

LoL, Geoff.