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351 Cleveland thermostat restrictor


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yes, i was referring to the ebay link posted by EBSTANG . These are the best and safest option if you use the stock style system . the problem is that there is no way to tell for sure if te stock system is working and sealing properly because you can not see inside the engine, therefore, if you have a hot running condition and the stock system, the stock system is suspect . if you replace the stock system with the bypass plate, it totally eliminates the possibility of the stock system being the problem, and since blocking off the bypass can be done with a fifty cent freeze plug and some JB QUICK, it is FAR cheaper to try that avenue first than it is to simply throw a new $400.00 radiator at it, especially if your current rad looks clean inside and ypur fans are working.

 

if it still runs hot then look at the other fr more expensive areas and once t is fixed, you can simply wire wheel th JBWELD off ad revert back to the stock system and if your tems remain the same, you are good to go . if thy increase, your stock system is obviously failing as well.

 

if you modify your engine for higher hp and bore it out, it's cooling requirements will be greater, therefore, a bigger rad is needed . the demsr the rad core is, the more ifficult it is for air to flow thru, therefore, a better fan is usually necessary also wjen installing a bigger ad.

 

if the engine runs hot in traffic but not on the open road, you need better fan . if it runs hot on the open road, you need a bigger rad.

 

a bigger rad works better with a high flow t stat and high flow pump or faster spinning stock pump which ca be achieved wit the use of a smaller water pump pulley.

 

all chinese made rads have tubes that are at least 25% smaller than us made tubes so this must be taken into account when buying a rad.

 

do not assume that an electric fan will flow more air than a stock type fan, and in fact, very few do . the best fans are the big spall and factory taurus and lincoln fans . these will in fact suck small children and animals right off the sidewalk and increase your mileage by 2 mpg as they pull your car along.

 

a fan controller should e used with these because they should not run on high all the time DCC controls makes two very god and very popular ones.

 

if your engine rums hot, it can also be due to incorrect timing, incorrect plugs and incorrect jetting . this items should be looked at as well if you have a hot running condition.

 

probably 99% of engines in the older cars have less than optimal timing even if it is factory timing on a factory car because starting in the 70's, the factories had to start using timing specs that would allow the cars to pass emissions inspection.

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OK, OK - the dead equine is sufficiently tenderized. Geez.

 

Look guys, as the actual originator of this thread, the point was to ask if the WCCC block-off plate could be used as a replacement for the unobtanium factory Cleveland restrictor bypass plate with some modification, which segued into the discussion on the merits/shortfalls of the Pantera Mod. The added discussion of having a properly working cooling system vs. a poorly operating cooling system along with the sharing of the correct Cleveland-specific thermostat applications is valid and added value to the information provided.

 

I asked because I kept getting Windsor thermostats from the local parts stores due to not having the right P/Ns, since the kids at said parts stores don't know anything more that what their computers tell them. Since I have employed the Pantera Mod, my engine's cooling system is working wonderfully - as it should, since everything is brand new (and unrestricted by old or failing components).

 

The bumping uglies of egos and subtle sniping as a result, however, is unwelcome. Let's stay on-topic, please.

Eric

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yes, i was referring to the ebay link posted by EBSTANG . These are the best and safest option if you use the stock style system . the problem is that there is no way to tell for sure if te stock system is working and sealing properly because you can not see inside the engine, therefore, if you have a hot running condition and the stock system, the stock system is suspect . if you replace the stock system with the bypass plate, it totally eliminates the possibility of the stock system being the problem, and since blocking off the bypass can be done with a fifty cent freeze plug and some JB QUICK, it is FAR cheaper to try that avenue first than it is to simply throw a new $400.00 radiator at it, especially if your current rad looks clean inside and ypur fans are working.

 

if it still runs hot then look at the other fr more expensive areas and once t is fixed, you can simply wire wheel th JBWELD off ad revert back to the stock system and if your tems remain the same, you are good to go . if thy increase, your stock system is obviously failing as well.

 

if you modify your engine for higher hp and bore it out, it's cooling requirements will be greater, therefore, a bigger rad is needed . the demsr the rad core is, the more ifficult it is for air to flow thru, therefore, a better fan is usually necessary also wjen installing a bigger ad.

 

if the engine runs hot in traffic but not on the open road, you need better fan . if it runs hot on the open road, you need a bigger rad.

 

a bigger rad works better with a high flow t stat and high flow pump or faster spinning stock pump which ca be achieved wit the use of a smaller water pump pulley.

 

all chinese made rads have tubes that are at least 25% smaller than us made tubes so this must be taken into account when buying a rad.

 

 

I agree with everything you just stated in this post, my friend. I just chose to start with (when building my 408 Cleveland ) the pricey thermostat and a new brass bypass washer since "neonfiddler" (Ebay guy) did such a nice job perfecting them. This does not mean these parts will perfect a cooling system, just that he did a great job perfecting the parts! I truly appreciate a finely made part, especially one made by a small business in the United States! :sbalute:

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! ::thumb::

 

 

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I agree with everything you just stated in this post, my friend. I just chose to start with (when building my 408 Cleveland ) the pricey thermostat and a new brass bypass washer since "neonfiddler" (Ebay guy) did such a nice job perfecting them. This does not mean these parts will perfect a cooling system, just that he did a great job perfecting the parts! I truly appreciate a finely made part, especially one made by a small business in the United States! :sbalute:

 

 

You obviously did a lot of research and some testing when you looked into this which is great, and your comment about the high quality made parts for the stock system and link to them are both great as very few people know of these parts and where to get them.

 

As I am guessing you realized, my entire point was simply with the crappy parts that don't always work as intended and not being able to visually see if they are working.

 

Also, if i remember correctly, the orig t stat on a Clevo was a high flow like the one you bought from him, and if that is the case, even if the standard flow t stats did seal properly, an engine can still run hotter than it normally would solely because the t stat does not flow enough.

 

This system is a good example of a good idea that was poorly executed.

 

PS - Yes, attribute is a more accurate word than contribute . I was tired when I posted that . That's my excuse and I'm stickin to it.

 

.

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I agree with everything you just stated in this post, my friend. I just chose to start with (when building my 408 Cleveland ) the pricey thermostat and a new brass bypass washer since "neonfiddler" (Ebay guy) did such a nice job perfecting them. This does not mean these parts will perfect a cooling system, just that he did a great job perfecting the parts! I truly appreciate a finely made part, especially one made by a small business in the United States! :sbalute:

 

 

You obviously did a lot of research and some testing when you looked into this which is great, and your comment about the high quality made parts for the stock system and link to them are both great as very few people know of these parts and where to get them.

 

As I am guessing you realized, my entire point was simply with the crappy parts that don't always work as intended and not being able to visually see if they are working.

 

Also, if i remember correctly, the orig t stat on a Clevo was a high flow like the one you bought from him, and if that is the case, even if the standard flow t stats did seal properly, an engine can still run hotter than it normally would solely because the t stat does not flow enough.

 

This system is a good example of a good idea that was poorly executed.

 

PS - Yes, attribute is a more accurate word than contribute . I was tired when I posted that . That's my excuse and I'm stickin to it.

 

.

 

Semantics. When on a forum, especially when contributing the written word to a forum, (or any other "text only" communication) semantics is key. Texts/emails can lose much in translation. People, in general, (not you specifically- everybody) need to take the time to text/email exactly what they mean and not speak loosely and leave the door open for miscommunication. (Very important in today's wold of non-face to face correspondence). There are many people who like to give their 2 cents but won't invest their time in others enough to write a concise comment. (or novel, as some would call it)

 

Thank you for your well though out comments toward the end of the thread Barnett.

 

PS - When you'return tired, go to bed.lollerz

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! ::thumb::

 

 

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http://www.ebay.com/usr/neonfiddler?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754

 

Go to this Ebay site. I have no affiliation with this man, other than I purchased the brass washer, a 180° & 195° thermostat from him. Now listen......I testify with my reputation on the line, that these are quality, better than new. The brass washer is a higher quality, more finely machined piece, period. The skirt, is machined and pressed onto the correct robertshaw thermostat. This skirt is thicker than stock material and is much higher quality than the others available on Amazon and at Napa, I know because I have the Amazon ones and the Napa ones on my shelf in my shop. I spent big bucks on my engine and I obsessed over this issue a year ago. I bought all of them and tested them.

 

This guy on Ebay is a machinist and a Pantera enthusiast but he does not believe in the aluminum blocking plate. Either do I. (I also have one of these plates and contemplated using it) Get this next concept clear in your mind: It is not a restrictor plate, it is a bypass washer. A restrictor plate is something altogether different. My Cleveland, with 425 HP runs perfectly using these parts, I currently use the 180°. Again, I have no reason to recommend this guy other than when you have the parts in your hand and you compare them to others, his are of better quality.

 

His washer and thermostat will cost you $100 (last year), now they are around $120. I know it sounds like a rip off but what do you think he should sell them for...his machinist time is worth it for my engine. If it is not worth his time to make them, why would he? He doesn't make runs of millions of these, each one is machined. Go to his site and read. Educate yourself. Don't cheap out.

 

 

Good info ebstang, just re-read the entire post from beginning to end and actually learned a few things. That is difficult to do as I get older, but it does happen...

 

I would also like to apologize to 4x4 for taking over his original post, I was just looking for thermostat information for our rebuild. Clevelands are quite interesting engines in this regard.

 

:thankyouyellow:

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No worries, Mystic Fish - your questions and comments are relevant to the thread... and you're right: Cleveland engines are somewhat of a different breed it seems. :cool:

Eric

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yes, the problem is not the concept of the cleveland system . . the problem is the design and parts used . . this system did not seal all the time when it was new which is why guys were changing it on new cars . . there are some cars that have the clevo system and theirs work just fine, but if you get rid of it, you 100% eliminate it as a potential cause of overheating.

 

the problem is that you can not actually see the system in operation so there is really no way to tell if it is sealing or not . . if you install the block off plate, it will seal.

 

if you have an aftermarket water pump that does not have the bypass, you should drill the bypass hole in it if you use the block off plate.

 

also, you can drill three 1/8" holes in the perimeter of your thermostat if you use the plate.

 

If you want to use the factory brass bypass washer & the correct skirted thermostat, you need to use an original factory water pump, an edelbrock water pump or a FlowKooler water pump. They all have the bypass bored into them to mate up to the block where the bypass connects. If your pump does not have a bypass bore in it, it does not matter whether you use a brass bypass washer or a block off plate. You could put nothing in that location because it would lead to nowhere.

 

My Cleveland had a Weiand pump on it when I bought the car. The weiand pump has no bypass bore. If anyone is interested I have pics of that pump and the pics of the bore process to drill out the bypass passageway to use that pump. This FlowKooler is what I chose after researching all available. It seems to be working great.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bra-1648/overview/make/ford

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! ::thumb::

 

 

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http://www.ebay.com/usr/neonfiddler?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754

 

Go to this Ebay site. I have no affiliation with this man, other than I purchased the brass washer, a 180° & 195° thermostat from him. Now listen......I testify with my reputation on the line, that these are quality, better than new. The brass washer is a higher quality, more finely machined piece, period. The skirt, is machined and pressed onto the correct robertshaw thermostat. This skirt is thicker than stock material and is much higher quality than the others available on Amazon and at Napa, I know because I have the Amazon ones and the Napa ones on my shelf in my shop. I spent big bucks on my engine and I obsessed over this issue a year ago. I bought all of them and tested them.

 

This guy on Ebay is a machinist and a Pantera enthusiast but he does not believe in the aluminum blocking plate. Either do I. (I also have one of these plates and contemplated using it) Get this next concept clear in your mind: It is not a restrictor plate, it is a bypass washer. A restrictor plate is something altogether different. My Cleveland, with 425 HP runs perfectly using these parts, I currently use the 180°. Again, I have no reason to recommend this guy other than when you have the parts in your hand and you compare them to others, his are of better quality.

 

His washer and thermostat will cost you $100 (last year), now they are around $120. I know it sounds like a rip off but what do you think he should sell them for...his machinist time is worth it for my engine. If it is not worth his time to make them, why would he? He doesn't make runs of millions of these, each one is machined. Go to his site and read. Educate yourself. Don't cheap out.

 

 

Good info ebstang, just re-read the entire post from beginning to end and actually learned a few things. That is difficult to do as I get older, but it does happen...

 

I would also like to apologize to 4x4 for taking over his original post, I was just looking for thermostat information for our rebuild. Clevelands are quite interesting engines in this regard.

 

:thankyouyellow:

 

 

Ahhh, Eric (Mister4x4) started this post last fall and even he, almost, forgot about it. I'd imagine he's cool with new hype on an old post...

now about those Obsidian taillight lenses... :chin:

 

One thing for sure that makes this topic of conversation confusing for many especially when first learning about it is when people interchangeably use the names:

 

Brass bypass washer

bypass plate

Cleveland thermostat restrictor- 9/7/15

restrictor/bypass plate- 9/8/15

solid restrictor plate- 9/8/15

block off plate- 9/8/15

original style brass restrictors- 9/8/15

stock restrictor plate- 9/9/15

restrictor hat- 3/24/16

bypass orifice plug- 3/24/16

bypass plate- 3/25/16

restrictor washer

restrictor plate

Pantera plate

Pantera restrictor plate

 

You almost have to read a whole thread to get a thorough understanding. Sometimes, in threads, a term (above) is used and it's easy to think the writer is referring to one when in reality he is inadvertently referring to the other. Terms like "bypass plate" can get confusing since they are a combination of the two different part's descriptions and only confuse the reader unless he is carefully reading the whole context of the comment. There are comments in this thread where the comment's author refers to one but if you're reading carefully you can clearly see he really means the other. (Inadvertently, unintentionally)

 

Factory (brass) Bypass Washer- "washer" as in, has a hole in the middle for coolant flow. It does not restrict. The skirted thermostat gradually restricts coolant flow, proportionally, as the thermostat slowly opens, simultaneously closing the hole/orifice in the washer. It is not a plate.

 

Aftermarket (aluminum) Bypass Blocking Plate- "plate" as in, no hole in the middle. No flow. Total restriction, always.

 

***For informational & educational purposes only! Not meant to offend or ruffle*** ;)

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! ::thumb::

 

 

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http://www.ebay.com/usr/neonfiddler?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754

 

Go to this Ebay site. I have no affiliation with this man, other than I purchased the brass washer, a 180° & 195° thermostat from him. Now listen......I testify with my reputation on the line, that these are quality, better than new. The brass washer is a higher quality, more finely machined piece, period. The skirt, is machined and pressed onto the correct robertshaw thermostat. This skirt is thicker than stock material and is much higher quality than the others available on Amazon and at Napa, I know because I have the Amazon ones and the Napa ones on my shelf in my shop. I spent big bucks on my engine and I obsessed over this issue a year ago. I bought all of them and tested them.

 

This guy on Ebay is a machinist and a Pantera enthusiast but he does not believe in the aluminum blocking plate. Either do I. (I also have one of these plates and contemplated using it) Get this next concept clear in your mind: It is not a restrictor plate, it is a bypass washer. A restrictor plate is something altogether different. My Cleveland, with 425 HP runs perfectly using these parts, I currently use the 180°. Again, I have no reason to recommend this guy other than when you have the parts in your hand and you compare them to others, his are of better quality.

 

His washer and thermostat will cost you $100 (last year), now they are around $120. I know it sounds like a rip off but what do you think he should sell them for...his machinist time is worth it for my engine. If it is not worth his time to make them, why would he? He doesn't make runs of millions of these, each one is machined. Go to his site and read. Educate yourself. Don't cheap out.

 

 

Good info ebstang, just re-read the entire post from beginning to end and actually learned a few things. That is difficult to do as I get older, but it does happen...

 

I would also like to apologize to 4x4 for taking over his original post, I was just looking for thermostat information for our rebuild. Clevelands are quite interesting engines in this regard.

 

:thankyouyellow:

 

 

Ahhh, Eric (Mister4x4) started this post last fall and even he, almost, forgot about it. I'd imagine he's cool with new hype on an old post...

now about those Obsidian taillight lenses... :chin:

 

One thing for sure that makes this topic of conversation confusing for many especially when first learning about it is when people interchangeably use the names:

 

Brass bypass washer

bypass plate

Cleveland thermostat restrictor- 9/7/15

restrictor/bypass plate- 9/8/15

solid restrictor plate- 9/8/15

block off plate- 9/8/15

original style brass restrictors- 9/8/15

stock restrictor plate- 9/9/15

restrictor hat- 3/24/16

bypass orifice plug- 3/24/16

bypass plate- 3/25/16

restrictor washer

restrictor plate

Pantera plate

Pantera restrictor plate

 

You almost have to read a whole thread to get a thorough understanding. Sometimes, in threads, a term (above) is used and it's easy to think the writer is referring to one when in reality he is inadvertently referring to the other. Terms like "bypass plate" can get confusing since they are a combination of the two different part's descriptions and only confuse the reader unless he is carefully reading the whole context of the comment. There are comments in this thread where the comment's author refers to one but if you're reading carefully you can clearly see he really means the other. (Inadvertently, unintentionally)

 

Factory (brass) Bypass Washer- "washer" as in, has a hole in the middle for coolant flow. It does not restrict. The skirted thermostat gradually restricts coolant flow, proportionally, as the thermostat slowly opens, simultaneously closing the hole/orifice in the washer. It is not a plate.

 

Aftermarket (aluminum) Bypass Blocking Plate- "plate" as in, no hole in the middle. No flow. Total restriction, always.

 

***For informational & educational purposes only! Not meant to offend or ruffle*** ;)

 

Good point on the different names used for this part, I can see how one could be confused when reading the various threads. BTW, the 73 Shop Manual calls this the Water Pump Bypass Orifice Plug. Another name for the list ;)

-john

(jbojo)

351C 4V cc heads, 10.5 : 1 CR, 290 Herbert cam, Flat top forged pistons, forged connecting rods, Atomic efi,

C6 with Gear Vendor overdrive, 3.89 Tru Trac, Hooker Super Comp with 2 1/2" Pypes Exhaust.        

 

Some Mod pictures can be seen at: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/forum-garage?filterxt_uid=2026]Bojo's Garage[/button]

 

 

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We are rebuilding a 351C and it appears that the restrictor hat is permanently attached to the engine block. When we tore the engine down I was aware of the removable hat, but noticed that what looks like the restrictor hat would not come out of the block.

 

The block has now been hot tanked and bored .030 and was curious if the hot tank process would loosen or even destroy the hat. It did not and is in the same place it was before the machine work.

 

It the spot in the block simply a mounting spot for the hat? It looks just like the pictures posted here of what the hat should look like, but is not removable. Is it possible that the hat is permanently mounted in the block?

 

How difficult is it to remove the restrictor hat?

 

I am at a bit of a loss and appreciate some input.

 

351 M blocks had the bypass cast integral with the block thus eliminating the need for the brass bypass plate. Is it possible you have a 351 M?

Ron

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