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lollerz
Thanks for the direct and to the point answer...
351 Cleveland thermostat restrictor
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lollerz
Thanks for the direct and to the point answer...
Paul of MO
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Wait for it.......................... Here it comes.........................I am wrong because..................:whistling:
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Thanks Barnett468, Now I know what to do.......... buy the right stat!!
As you know, my engine is as stock as I could make it, so as long as I install a stat that was MEANT to be in it, everything should be hunky-dory.
Glad you liked my engineer joke. However it should have read; ...tell HIM much, not them, but what the heck eh!
:bravo:
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no, there have been thousands of issues with stock factory ford parts.
Yes but a high flow t stat should also be used.
Are any of these PN's the high flow version mentioned in the thread?
Paul of MO
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I think the robertshaw one is the only specifically mentioned as high flow. I have not used this so I do not know for sure.
Thanks
Here's two charts that info came from:
True Barnett. Block off plate or brass bypass washer, which ever way you decide to go "...will not compensate for an inadequate cooling system." When that person then has an overheating issue, they will blame it on the plate -vs- washer decision when, in truth, it is more likely radiator, water pump, timing, fan shroud sealing...etc.
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...or buy/use the parts mentioned above (from the machinist on Ebay) since they are not the "stock factory ford parts..." They are better quality. They will not CURE your cooling problems, (I never stated/implied they would) they will just work better (potentially) at sealing the bypass (skirt of the bypass sealing off the hole/orifice in the brass bypass washer) when the thermostat is in the open position.
Barnett468's statement "...the original system also works fine when the parts mentioned above (the parts on Ebay, I'm assuming, since this quote was a reply under my links of the parts on Ebay) are used . the factory parts didn't work well . the prob is not the concept, it is the crappy parts ford used to build the system with."
The thermostat I listed the link to, sold by the machinist on Ebay, is the original Robertson High Flow thermostat. I'm pretty sure you can't get this High Flow thermostat with the copper skirt attached any longer. It is not made. Similar "skirted" NON-High Flow stats can be acquired from Amazon and Napa. They MAY/COULD introduce an additional variable, since they are only similar. I have suggested and I personally use, the parts sold by the Ebay machinist in an attempt to use the "concept"^ but improve upon the "crappy parts ford used."^
http://www.ebay.com/usr/neonfiddler?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754
...you have the factory bypass washer in your block, buy this High Flow stat or the non-high flow stats shown in the charts.
http://www.ebay.com/usr/neonfiddler?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754
...so here is the High Flow "stat that was MEANT to be in it..."
http://www.ebay.com/usr/neonfiddler?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754
or buy the cheap ones at Napa and Amazon, they are similar but not High Flow and the skirt that seals the opening in the stock ford bypass washer is not constructed as well. You will save $50-60 with one of these, that's up to you, obviously. Good luck with it!
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installing electric fans does not make a system more reliable since they can fail . also, since good electric fans flow more air at low speed than a stock fan does, they will cool the engine better at low speeds, so again, you can NOT attribute improved cooling or efficient cooling to the custom made parts as it seems like you are trying to do.
Electric fans use electricity, yes. Stock fans use belts. Both can break. My electric fans will more reliably cool my engine than my stock fan would, in a wider array of situations than my stock fan did.
Also, i don't know what you mean by saying that none of the west coast cougar guys use the aftermarket bypass, because this is wrong . i was in the west coast cougar club and i used it and i know several other people that used it.
I was speaking of the owner of West Coast Classic Cougar, Inc. WCCC (http://www.westcoastclassiccougarinc.com/index.php) and his staff. The owner told me that "they sell it, they don't know much about it and do not personally use it." Just because they sell it, is not an endorsement of it. They did not invent it, do not manufacture it, do not use it but they will take your money if you want it.
I don't know anything about your "west coast cougar club."
Any other misunderstandings you need cleared up?
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barnett468
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yes, i was referring to the ebay link posted by EBSTANG . These are the best and safest option if you use the stock style system . the problem is that there is no way to tell for sure if te stock system is working and sealing properly because you can not see inside the engine, therefore, if you have a hot running condition and the stock system, the stock system is suspect . if you replace the stock system with the bypass plate, it totally eliminates the possibility of the stock system being the problem, and since blocking off the bypass can be done with a fifty cent freeze plug and some JB QUICK, it is FAR cheaper to try that avenue first than it is to simply throw a new $400.00 radiator at it, especially if your current rad looks clean inside and ypur fans are working.
if it still runs hot then look at the other fr more expensive areas and once t is fixed, you can simply wire wheel th JBWELD off ad revert back to the stock system and if your tems remain the same, you are good to go . if thy increase, your stock system is obviously failing as well.
if you modify your engine for higher hp and bore it out, it's cooling requirements will be greater, therefore, a bigger rad is needed . the demsr the rad core is, the more ifficult it is for air to flow thru, therefore, a better fan is usually necessary also wjen installing a bigger ad.
if the engine runs hot in traffic but not on the open road, you need better fan . if it runs hot on the open road, you need a bigger rad.
a bigger rad works better with a high flow t stat and high flow pump or faster spinning stock pump which ca be achieved wit the use of a smaller water pump pulley.
all chinese made rads have tubes that are at least 25% smaller than us made tubes so this must be taken into account when buying a rad.
do not assume that an electric fan will flow more air than a stock type fan, and in fact, very few do . the best fans are the big spall and factory taurus and lincoln fans . these will in fact suck small children and animals right off the sidewalk and increase your mileage by 2 mpg as they pull your car along.
a fan controller should e used with these because they should not run on high all the time DCC controls makes two very god and very popular ones.
if your engine rums hot, it can also be due to incorrect timing, incorrect plugs and incorrect jetting . this items should be looked at as well if you have a hot running condition.
probably 99% of engines in the older cars have less than optimal timing even if it is factory timing on a factory car because starting in the 70's, the factories had to start using timing specs that would allow the cars to pass emissions inspection.
if it still runs hot then look at the other fr more expensive areas and once t is fixed, you can simply wire wheel th JBWELD off ad revert back to the stock system and if your tems remain the same, you are good to go . if thy increase, your stock system is obviously failing as well.
if you modify your engine for higher hp and bore it out, it's cooling requirements will be greater, therefore, a bigger rad is needed . the demsr the rad core is, the more ifficult it is for air to flow thru, therefore, a better fan is usually necessary also wjen installing a bigger ad.
if the engine runs hot in traffic but not on the open road, you need better fan . if it runs hot on the open road, you need a bigger rad.
a bigger rad works better with a high flow t stat and high flow pump or faster spinning stock pump which ca be achieved wit the use of a smaller water pump pulley.
all chinese made rads have tubes that are at least 25% smaller than us made tubes so this must be taken into account when buying a rad.
do not assume that an electric fan will flow more air than a stock type fan, and in fact, very few do . the best fans are the big spall and factory taurus and lincoln fans . these will in fact suck small children and animals right off the sidewalk and increase your mileage by 2 mpg as they pull your car along.
a fan controller should e used with these because they should not run on high all the time DCC controls makes two very god and very popular ones.
if your engine rums hot, it can also be due to incorrect timing, incorrect plugs and incorrect jetting . this items should be looked at as well if you have a hot running condition.
probably 99% of engines in the older cars have less than optimal timing even if it is factory timing on a factory car because starting in the 70's, the factories had to start using timing specs that would allow the cars to pass emissions inspection.
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OK, OK - the dead equine is sufficiently tenderized. Geez.
Look guys, as the actual originator of this thread, the point was to ask if the WCCC block-off plate could be used as a replacement for the unobtanium factory Cleveland restrictor bypass plate with some modification, which segued into the discussion on the merits/shortfalls of the Pantera Mod. The added discussion of having a properly working cooling system vs. a poorly operating cooling system along with the sharing of the correct Cleveland-specific thermostat applications is valid and added value to the information provided.
I asked because I kept getting Windsor thermostats from the local parts stores due to not having the right P/Ns, since the kids at said parts stores don't know anything more that what their computers tell them. Since I have employed the Pantera Mod, my engine's cooling system is working wonderfully - as it should, since everything is brand new (and unrestricted by old or failing components).
The bumping uglies of egos and subtle sniping as a result, however, is unwelcome. Let's stay on-topic, please.
Look guys, as the actual originator of this thread, the point was to ask if the WCCC block-off plate could be used as a replacement for the unobtanium factory Cleveland restrictor bypass plate with some modification, which segued into the discussion on the merits/shortfalls of the Pantera Mod. The added discussion of having a properly working cooling system vs. a poorly operating cooling system along with the sharing of the correct Cleveland-specific thermostat applications is valid and added value to the information provided.
I asked because I kept getting Windsor thermostats from the local parts stores due to not having the right P/Ns, since the kids at said parts stores don't know anything more that what their computers tell them. Since I have employed the Pantera Mod, my engine's cooling system is working wonderfully - as it should, since everything is brand new (and unrestricted by old or failing components).
The bumping uglies of egos and subtle sniping as a result, however, is unwelcome. Let's stay on-topic, please.
Paul of MO
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:goodpost::thankyouyellow::bravo:::thumb::
I agree with everything you just stated in this post, my friend. I just chose to start with (when building my 408 Cleveland ) the pricey thermostat and a new brass bypass washer since "neonfiddler" (Ebay guy) did such a nice job perfecting them. This does not mean these parts will perfect a cooling system, just that he did a great job perfecting the parts! I truly appreciate a finely made part, especially one made by a small business in the United States! :sbalute:
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You obviously did a lot of research and some testing when you looked into this which is great, and your comment about the high quality made parts for the stock system and link to them are both great as very few people know of these parts and where to get them.
As I am guessing you realized, my entire point was simply with the crappy parts that don't always work as intended and not being able to visually see if they are working.
Also, if i remember correctly, the orig t stat on a Clevo was a high flow like the one you bought from him, and if that is the case, even if the standard flow t stats did seal properly, an engine can still run hotter than it normally would solely because the t stat does not flow enough.
This system is a good example of a good idea that was poorly executed.
PS - Yes, attribute is a more accurate word than contribute . I was tired when I posted that . That's my excuse and I'm stickin to it.
.
Semantics. When on a forum, especially when contributing the written word to a forum, (or any other "text only" communication) semantics is key. Texts/emails can lose much in translation. People, in general, (not you specifically- everybody) need to take the time to text/email exactly what they mean and not speak loosely and leave the door open for miscommunication. (Very important in today's wold of non-face to face correspondence). There are many people who like to give their 2 cents but won't invest their time in others enough to write a concise comment. (or novel, as some would call it)
Thank you for your well though out comments toward the end of the thread Barnett.
PS - When you'return tired, go to bed.lollerz
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Good info ebstang, just re-read the entire post from beginning to end and actually learned a few things. That is difficult to do as I get older, but it does happen...
I would also like to apologize to 4x4 for taking over his original post, I was just looking for thermostat information for our rebuild. Clevelands are quite interesting engines in this regard.
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No worries, Mystic Fish - your questions and comments are relevant to the thread... and you're right: Cleveland engines are somewhat of a different breed it seems. 
If you want to use the factory brass bypass washer & the correct skirted thermostat, you need to use an original factory water pump, an edelbrock water pump or a FlowKooler water pump. They all have the bypass bored into them to mate up to the block where the bypass connects. If your pump does not have a bypass bore in it, it does not matter whether you use a brass bypass washer or a block off plate. You could put nothing in that location because it would lead to nowhere.
My Cleveland had a Weiand pump on it when I bought the car. The weiand pump has no bypass bore. If anyone is interested I have pics of that pump and the pics of the bore process to drill out the bypass passageway to use that pump. This FlowKooler is what I chose after researching all available. It seems to be working great.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bra-1648/overview/make/ford
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