Matching Numbers

72Machi · May 30, 2011

I've owned my 72 Mach since '79, unfortunately when I was young and dumb I sold the original 351C 2bl to buy a "fresh" 351C 2bl out of a 72 Torino. Aside from being young and dumb I did not have the cash/time/confidence to rebuild the original motor. Fast forward I have a little more (not much more) cash/time/confidence to put the car back together. After 30+ years of searching for a donor car I found a 72 Grande (build date 11/71, registered 6/72) in my area with all the stuff my car is/was missing, ie power disc brakes, factory A/C and an most importantly the original 351C 2bl (currently has a 4bl intake/carb on 2bl heads). My car has a build date of 4/72 and was origianlly registered 6/72, my question is are these two build dates close enough to be considerd matching numbers when I swap the parts from my donor car to mine? :huh:

Thanks for your help in this matter..... FYI I should have some fairly nice southwestern condition parts left over if you are in the Phoenix metro area.

And a big Thank You to all you veterans who may be reading! Happy Memorial Day!!

72HCODE · May 30, 2011

nope, all 71-73 had the partial VIN number stamped on the drivers side rear of the engine.

some also had the partial Vin stamped on the top of the transmission case.

matching numbers on these cars really means matching numbers.

the early mustangs didn't have a VIN stamp so they went by the approximate date codes just before the build date of the body.

72Machi · May 30, 2011

Thanks for the quick reply! Not what I was hoping for, sounds like a real needle in a haystack to find the "original" motor. I must have been thinking about the earlys for the matching numbers.

Did the factory "stamp" the block? I'm assuming that there is no way to cast the parital VIN numbers in the block...

FYI I did keep the old block ID that was on the coil housing.... is there a way to restamp the block or is that cheating?

On a side note, if you bought a 351C 2bl block sometime in 1980 in Las Vegas, NV for your daughters car from a young and dumb teenager with a 72 blue Mach 1 I would love to talk to you!

72HCODE · May 30, 2011

the block was stamped, not cast.

anything involving re-stamping i wouldn't even discuss.

will e · May 30, 2011

So what are your intentions for the car? Are you going to create a concurs show car? Are you going to try to sell it for top dollar? Are you going to create an awesome car for you to drive and show? If you are doing the first you will lose points (although honestly I had no idea part of the vin was stamped on the motor). If you doing the second then it would be bogus to 'restamp' it. If you are doing the third then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

72Machi · May 31, 2011

So what are your intentions for the car? Are you going to create a concurs show car? Are you going to try to sell it for top dollar? Are you going to create an awesome car for you to drive and show? If you are doing the first you will lose points (although honestly I had no idea part of the vin was stamped on the motor). If you doing the second then it would be bogus to 'restamp' it. If you are doing the third then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Agree would be bogus to restamp and call it matching numbers. Maybe just having a correct motor, same year/model will be good enough for me or the next owner when I'm gone. Since it's an H code, nothing against H codes, I wouldn't go through all the trouble and mostly expense to find all matching part numbers to make it concurs. A real nice daily driver with mostly authentic parts is what I had in mind. Maybe if the price starts gaining ground on the Boss 351's and the 429's and the car and I are still around, I may go the additional expense. But w/o the original motor and no way to get closer to the original motor than I am now, I can't see a $10k-$15k frame on restoration, neither would my wife unless I could convince her that the money would be coming back. I hate to break it down to dollars so much, especailly since I really do love the car, but have 1 son in college and another one a few years behind, so I have to keep my priorities straight for now...

Great conversation!

the block was stamped, not cast.

anything involving re-stamping i wouldn't even discuss.

Agreed would not be honest to pass as original, would have been for asthetics only not to increase value... I do have the original transmission, but 1/2 original doesn't really do anything. Are there any other parts that are VIN stamped besides the motor and tranny?

Is the stamp the last few digits of the VIN? I'm wondering what my odds of finding a/the matching motor? What do people do when they break thier motor beyond repair, can it never be original again?

Thanks for the insight, never heard of the stamp.

FasTnNefariouS · May 31, 2011

Yes and no. Yes the parts are all period correct and can be used, but no to the block. Partial vin would be Year, Assembler, and sequential unit numbers

Only familiar with the 351C and on mine it's located on the rear driver's side of the block just below the cylinder head. Sadly, I've seen stamping kits on ebay for Harley Motorcycles and American muscle cars. These stamping dies are exact reproduction and with same size fonts used. I've seen a set used for bank safe deposite boxes etc.. and one can easily create a new vin and you'd never know. It's sad, but that easy. The vins on these old blocks were not that well placed on the blocks. Some are struck deeper than others and not in a perfect line or spaced out properly. I've seen some with numbers that overlaped. Good luck with your search!

URUGUAYAN_FASTBACK · May 31, 2011

Does a really matching number car increase its value or maybe a everything matching is the good valuable car?...

For example... i´ve seen a lot of engine matching numbers cars but.. dont know... the incorrect wiring for example... What should be the way to go for a real valuable car?

I´m very out of the market actually and here in Uruguay, any Mustang is valued is 30K or even more, including the everywhere common 1970 hardtops... So... here if you have a good car, you always defend your money...

I´m not a car dealer either so i´m judging about my personal eye here... In the forum we have a lot of examples of good all original cars... I remember right now Mike´s vert (OLE PONY) that is 100% original except for a great repaint done a couple of years ago... That for me is the trully valuable car... There is some other examples on 1 owner mach 1 etc that has been well kept during the years...

Well... i´m a fan of factory stock cars and if i were a rich guy i´ll buy that kind of cars! jeje... I happen to have a very close to original car myself and i´m doing my best to go in a lifetime project of trully restore it as it came out of the factory... Well.. that´s my hope and who knows if i´m gonna be able to do that eventually but in the midtime, i just do what is necessary to have fun driving my car... MAybe you can start doing a good reliable car and then, try to get part by part, as close to originality as you can get... enjoying the process... That´s my mind at least...

Ohh... before I end this post... You sold the original engine.. why dont you try track it out? You know... I bought a SLC 350, 1972 Mercedes Benz some time ago... it is an European version and i love that car...

I bought it cheap with a 300 diessel engine on it, and a missing V8 of course... Well.. to make a long story short.. looking for a Mercedes V8 engine for the car, i found THE engine someone took off this car in 1989... YES, MATCHING NUMBERS! je... It´s been a 2 years ride and it doesn´t run yet but bottom line... Your original engine is somewhere... maybe you get lucky and find it.. why not?

72HCODE · May 31, 2011

Does a really matching number car increase its value or maybe a everything matching is the good valuable car?...

Depends on the car.

you have a Super cobra jet, a matching number on the trans and engine will increase value.

a matching number boss 351 would be more then a replacement block 351.

you have an 302 or a run of the mill 250 grande car then no, unless you can prove it was a significant car.

A high option car is pretty rare if you had a fully loaded MACH 1 and the driveline was replaced it would still be worth a lot, obviously more if it was matching number.

I've had friends with 1 of 1 convertibles, that were pretty much worthless on the market.

i've also seen a 302 car that was converted into a SCJ clone go for crazy money. the devil is in the details.

there are tons of H codes around, including mine, they do not have much value other then they were born as a 351 engine.

larger engines are more desirable, but you could take a H code and Throw a Q code or R code motor in the car and make it more valuable.

my car has a matching engine but not a matching driveline. my transmission was switched from the original FMX to a C6 and my rear axle ratio was changed from 2.75 to 3.00

URUGUAYAN_FASTBACK · May 31, 2011

I understand what you are saying Danny... and it is logical too... If the important stuff is rare, powerful and factory original, then the car will worth more than another more common one...

My car is a 1 of 1, regarding the body style, engine and transmision, but we stablish it wont worth more than any other well preserved 72 fastback so the 1 of 1 factor doesn´t mean more money but yet, it could mean a reason to preserve the car the way factory built it back then.

Maybe Machi was trying to find out if a good frame off restorarion is suitable for the condition of no originality and for me, that´s a good YES... IF you do a good job in a common car, you are gonna end up owning a great classic car that will worth the effort in money... If you a not that good job in the car, you are gonna end up driving an uncomfortable car, with lots of details that will make you unhappy, besides, every bad spent dollar will NOT help the car on a sale...

In my opinion, if you like the car and you are thinking of getting close to originality, that´s more than enough even if the car is not so original and not so rare either... Whatever you do to be close to original for me, is money well spent... Any modification is up to you and a specific future buyier...

You Danny are doing a great job in your car.. we all see your detailing and it is great.. well... that for me, is money well spent... the car is gonna defend it if you have to sale it in the future... The same job doing cheap is not going to last good till the time of sale the car... the car is going to show it is been bad treated and the buyier will not pay for those bucks you spent wrong to make it cheap...

Any of our cars is going to worth more as the time goes by... a good close to originality restoration will make the difference in some years... A 351 Boss is going to worth 100K but any of our "normal" cars are going to defend the money we invested in them too...

Don65Stang · May 31, 2011

Good questions and answers guys! Learned something new.

I like the polished silver look - kind of like a Mach 1 Delorian edition...that would definitely be a 1 of 1.

72HCODE · May 31, 2011

i would trade my car for a low mileage survivor, in good shape with original paint

.

the truth is if the OP wants to restore his H code back to stock it can be done, the only difference would be the replacement driveline and engine block which you could disclose at sale time. you could take it to shows and nobody would know the difference, the VIN its very hard to see on the back of the block even with a mirror and a flashlight. nobody looks at the transmission and even then most of the cars didn't have the stamp on the top of the housing.

if you put it back to factory even with a replacement block it can be worth as much as it was with a matching number if the car is done right, even better if you have some rare options on it.

its all up to what the OP wants, if trying to fix it for max value its just not going to be there with an H code car.

for my car i kept as much of the originality i had which was seriously next to nothing other then the engine block itself and just built it up however i felt but tried to make it look factory its more of what i would call a maintained driver.

there are concourse restored 250 and 302 cars that are worth more money then my mach 1 will ever be even fully restored.

URUGUAYAN_FASTBACK · May 31, 2011

there are concourse restored 250 and 302 cars that are worth more money then my mach 1 will ever be even fully restored.

Again Danny, It is a matter of tastes... but bottom line, a car is a car and the more you have original, the more close to the looks and the enginiering that this specific car was made from are you gonna be...

Somebody can pay for a 250 that looks like it left the plant yesterday and some other dont... but even if they dont, you are owning a true survivor piece of history that will make you feel in that era...

Me... i love the feeling that every old part gives me when i find it, clean it... "restore" it and make it back in it´s right place doing its right funcion... 5000 parts after... i have my classic car...

For me, it is always worth the try of doing it perfect because if it´s not, it is gonna be close...

72HCODE · May 31, 2011

absolutely, and don't forget the 250K resto mods

i think the 250 cars are really cool when you go to car shows they are so different under the hood from the V8 cars its refreshing to see them all minty and happy.

72Machi · May 31, 2011

Good questions and answers guys! Learned something new.

I like the polished silver look - kind of like a Mach 1 Delorian edition...that would definitely be a 1 of 1.

Thanks, I had to take it down to bare metal because it had so many coats of paint in some spots that a smooth paintable surface would have been impossible. However, there is no white power in the trunk (obscure Delorian ref).:dodgy: That certainly would have helped with restoration costs.

i would trade my car for a low mileage survivor, in good shape with original paint .

the truth is if the OP wants to restore his H code back to stock it can be done, the only difference would be the replacement driveline and engine block which you could disclose at sale time. you could take it to shows and nobody would know the difference, the VIN its very hard to see on the back of the block even with a mirror and a flashlight. nobody looks at the transmission and even then most of the cars didn't have the stamp on the top of the housing.

if you put it back to factory even with a replacement block it can be worth as much as it was with a matching number if the car is done right, even better if you have some rare options on it.

its all up to what the OP wants, if trying to fix it for max value its just not going to be there with an H code car.

for my car i kept as much of the originality i had which was seriously next to nothing other then the engine block itself and just built it up however i felt but tried to make it look factory its more of what i would call a maintained driver.

there are concourse restored 250 and 302 cars that are worth more money then my mach 1 will ever be even fully restored.

Great points 72HCODE,

I hope knowone was offended about any of my H code comments, all Mustangs are sacred. While I was going to school I worked at a restoration shop that worked almost exclusively on BB Fords, 427's, 428 SCJ's and alike. I used to get verbally abused (not that bad) when talking up my "big" Mustang. To 72HCODE's comments, the last time I went to visit the shop he was working on a powder blue 65 mustang 289 2bl, that was immaculate. I was shocked that he was not working on a BB, he obviously saw the value too, as do many who post here, in a truely original car, no matter the VIN engine code.

I guess I'm having a hard time choosing my route to either go all original or minor restomod based on the amount of time it would take and to some degree the costs. I'm thinking that at this point in my life a nice daily driver with some aftermarket parts will be the way to go. I've learned the hard way not to throw/give/sell any parts away. To that end maybe the next "restoration" will be the one I truely want.

Thanks for all the advice and comments!

PAPPY HAROLD · May 31, 2011

SO WHATS WRONG WITH THIS RESTORATION PROJECT. YOU HAVE A CAR THATS ALMOST 50 YRS OLD, AND WHO THE HE-- IS GOING TO KNOW IF ITS CONCOURS. THERE WONT BE A HALF DOZEN WITHIN 100 MILES OF YA. BET YA CANT FIND ONE IN YOUR AREA. MINE WAS A TOTAL PIECE OF CRAP WITH A 460 IN IT, AND WAS ORIGINALY A 351 M CODE. I FELT LIKE YOU, AND WHEN I FOUND OUT ABOUT THE STAMPING I KNEW IT WOULD NEVER BE MATCHING NUMBERS. THE GUYS HERE SAID BUILD IT LIKE ( YOU) WANT IT SO THATS WHAT IM DOING. MY THING IS HAVING A CAR THAT IS STOCK LOOKING BUT BEEFED UP TO WHERE ITS HEARD AND SEEN, JUST LIKE WE ALL DID IN THE 60"S AND 70"S. I ALSO THINK YOU'LL FIND THERE WORTH JUST ABOUT AS MUCH IF THERE NICE. WHATEVER YOU DO GOOD LUCK.

72HCODE · May 31, 2011

you will fall into the same pits i did, and in the end you will have to make compromises, nothing is ever the perfect solution but things just fall into place.

you just need to figure out the end game on the car. you want a driver that looks and drives great and just looks close to how it used to but with improvements will be much easier then going insane for perfection.

i'll tell you a story.

A buddy of mine had a 56 chevy truck for years it sat outside on the farm just rotting away, finally the day came to restore it.

he decided from day one that this truck was going to be restored to how it was from the factory the day his grandfather took it home from the dealer.

10 years of sourcing parts and correct era replacements, 10 years of making it a museum piece, 10 years of hard ache, 10 years till the day the engine fired for the first time.

then the first test drive the excitement the wonder, the disappointment because it handled and drove and stopped just like a 1956 truck.

He sold it for a lot of money, went out and spent half the money on a 1956 resto moded chevy truck with a modified chassis and 4 corner disc brakes and a 600 HP motor. the rest of the money went to the kids college education, we are banned from talking about the original 56 chevy truck when in each others company

sm3570 · May 31, 2011

i'll tell you a story...

...we are banned from talking about the original 56 chevy truck when in each others company

Thanks 72HCODE, I needed that laugh! Good story.

72Machi · Jun 1, 2011

Does a really matching number car increase its value or maybe a everything matching is the good valuable car?...

For example... i´ve seen a lot of engine matching numbers cars but.. dont know... the incorrect wiring for example... What should be the way to go for a real valuable car?

I´m very out of the market actually and here in Uruguay, any Mustang is valued is 30K or even more, including the everywhere common 1970 hardtops... So... here if you have a good car, you always defend your money...

I´m not a car dealer either so i´m judging about my personal eye here... In the forum we have a lot of examples of good all original cars... I remember right now Mike´s vert (OLE PONY) that is 100% original except for a great repaint done a couple of years ago... That for me is the trully valuable car... There is some other examples on 1 owner mach 1 etc that has been well kept during the years...

Well... i´m a fan of factory stock cars and if i were a rich guy i´ll buy that kind of cars! jeje... I happen to have a very close to original car myself and i´m doing my best to go in a lifetime project of trully restore it as it came out of the factory... Well.. that´s my hope and who knows if i´m gonna be able to do that eventually but in the midtime, i just do what is necessary to have fun driving my car... MAybe you can start doing a good reliable car and then, try to get part by part, as close to originality as you can get... enjoying the process... That´s my mind at least...

Ohh... before I end this post... You sold the original engine.. why dont you try track it out? You know... I bought a SLC 350, 1972 Mercedes Benz some time ago... it is an European version and i love that car...

I bought it cheap with a 300 diessel engine on it, and a missing V8 of course... Well.. to make a long story short.. looking for a Mercedes V8 engine for the car, i found THE engine someone took off this car in 1989... YES, MATCHING NUMBERS! je... It´s been a 2 years ride and it doesn´t run yet but bottom line... Your original engine is somewhere... maybe you get lucky and find it.. why not?

Thanks for the suggestion, I like your idea of a nice driver and pick up the parts along the way... good luck on that Mecedes!

If I can figure out what the original block numbers should be I'll do a little digging on the old matching block; just hope it hasn't gone to the great wrecking yard in the sky.... :angel:

Matching Numbers

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