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Distributor gear roll pin. Need some expert guidance.


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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2021 at 6:57 AM, kcmash said:

So here are my problems.

1) Neither O Reilly or Napa have the roll pins.  They have some generic cad plated stuff but nothing strong.

2) The gear I have has 2 sets of cross drilled holes that look different sizes and it slips on.

3). I have been running the 20w 50 because that was the only weight they had on the shelf in high zinc.

The good news,  I have a spare dizzy shaft with a clean bore in it.

So I am wondering this.  With the poorly drilled holes and poorly fitting gear( non press fit) from Rock Auto combined with the 20w 50 enough to be the lethal combination.  I am unsure if my pump is high volume or not.  In other words should I do the following.

A) Rebuild the dizzy with a new shaft , gear and double wall roll pin.

B) Switch to a 10w 40 and use a zinc additive.

C) Test drive to see if that puts my oil pressure back down to the middle of the gauge range.

 

 

106A0E13-02BA-4F15-AF6C-43F4F8B05066.jpeg

It appears they drilled the gear correctly, but didn't mark the shaft so they would also drill the shaft at 90°.

I would temporarily install a mechanical gauge under the hood and see what pressures you are actually getting. Middle of the gauge on stock gauges is meaningless. You don't know what other tricks the previous owner did, like maybe shimming the bypass spring in the pump, to increase pressure. People hear that Clevelands have an oiling problem and over-react. The stock system is fine for non-racing use. During my upcoming rebuild all I plan on doing is installing restrictor cam bearings and lifter bushings with standard volume and pressure oil pump.

Edited by Don C

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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So I am the one who assembled this engine and put it in.  I bought the setup from another individual and I cannot recall if it is a high volume oil pump or not.

If I do a mechanical gage, what pressure shows me it’s a high pressure versus a standard flow and pressure?

Right now I have a new distributor on the way and a new melling oil pump with plans of going to something I know.  Looks like using too high pressure will lead to unreliability and a lot of expense.

kcmash

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The stock pump supplies 50 to 70 psi with hot oil at 2000 RPM. The pump you buy should give the pressure bypass spec.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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Unless I'm wrong, a High Volume pump means just that, higher volume, not necessarily higher pressure, i.e. the oil is moving faster through the engine.

My Melling M84A standard pump reads 70 psi hot. I did not yet have a mechanical oil pressure when the H/V pump was in there.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Good point, but if the pump does not have a pressure bleed valve, higher volume in the same downstream flow orifice will result in a pressure increase.  That is why there is more load on the drive gear at the distributor because the pump sees the back pressure.

I dread changing pumps, but I see the risk of leaving the unknown pump in place as too high a risk.  This last pin break has driven me to a tow bill, a new distributor, new mufflers since the old ones blew up.  So I want to get to a reliable driver not a “keep a spare part” risky driver.

kcmash

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This is a good link on how to recurve a Duraspark distributor:

http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html

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20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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2 hours ago, kcmash said:

Good point, but if the pump does not have a pressure bleed valve, higher volume in the same downstream flow orifice will result in a pressure increase.  That is why there is more load on the drive gear at the distributor because the pump sees the back pressure.

I dread changing pumps, but I see the risk of leaving the unknown pump in place as too high a risk.  This last pin break has driven me to a tow bill, a new distributor, new mufflers since the old ones blew up.  So I want to get to a reliable driver not a “keep a spare part” risky driver.

kcmash

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Physics was not one of my strongest subjects.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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5 hours ago, tony-muscle said:

This is a good link on how to recurve a Duraspark distributor:

http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html

Nice article, and if I could find the Duraspark for the $69 in the article I would do it.  I am finding $260 for just the Dizzy that needs recurve.
 

kcmash

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Thanks for the links Don.  Not being familiar with Duraspark technology, is there a coil pack that you need to buy to go with it, or what does the pigtail plug into, the big silver spark module?

kcmash

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I got the Spectra. But I paid a lot less than that back two years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001DAHM2K?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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The distributor plugs into the control module, a separate connector runs from the module to the coil. 

There's a wiring diagram in the 6th post here:

Help!! - Engine, Transmission, Drive Line, Etc - 7173Mustangs.com

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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Drained the oil and swept the pan bottom with a magnet on a wand.

Good news I found the broken roll pin pieces.  Bad news I have no idea what else I found.

 

802BA033-B466-43F1-9D3D-53775699FA98.jpeg

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On 5/31/2021 at 12:19 AM, tony-muscle said:

You can take the oil pan out without removing the engine. I did it not long ago. However, you need to lift the engine a couple inches. I did it by jacking on the oil pan bolts with a piece of wood. After lifting the engine use a 2x4 between engine and mount. You can also lower the sway bar for more room. Get the oil pan down and replace the pump. It is tricky to get the oil pan up and making sure it seals.

Tony,  

I am kinda stuck here.  When you raised your block, how exactly did you support it?  Did you release the motor mounts from the block and put a spacer block there, or release the crossing bolts and put a block between upper and lower motor mounts?  Kinda stuck at this point.

kcmash

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6 minutes ago, kcmash said:

Tony,  

I am kinda stuck here.  When you raised your block, how exactly did you support it?  Did you release the motor mounts from the block and put a spacer block there, or release the crossing bolts and put a block between upper and lower motor mounts?  Kinda stuck at this point.

kcmash

I removed the bolt between upper and lower mounts and placed a 2x4 block in between. I raised one side at the time since at that time i didnt have an engine crane.

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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16 hours ago, kcmash said:

Drained the oil and swept the pan bottom with a magnet on a wand.

Good news I found the broken roll pin pieces.  Bad news I have no idea what else I found.

 

802BA033-B466-43F1-9D3D-53775699FA98.jpeg

The two thinner pieces to the right kinda look like they were designed to capture a nut and keep it from spinning.

More pictures would help.  Do the smaller parts on the right look like chunks of gear teeth?

Either way, thats weight reduction.   Dont look a gift horse in the mouth.  :)

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2 hours ago, tony-muscle said:

I removed the bolt between upper and lower mounts and placed a 2x4 block in between. I raised one side at the time since at that time i didnt have an engine crane.

Thanks Tony, very helpful!  Can you get the pan the whole way out without removing the oil pump that way.  I will need to disconnect the H Pipe and loosen the tranny cross bolts to get that height.

kcmash

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2 hours ago, giantpune said:

The two thinner pieces to the right kinda look like they were designed to capture a nut and keep it from spinning.

More pictures would help.  Do the smaller parts on the right look like chunks of gear teeth?

Either way, thats weight reduction.   Dont look a gift horse in the mouth.  :)

I believe the smaller. Chunks may be gear tooth chunks from a different issue.

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On 6/2/2021 at 9:37 PM, tony-muscle said:

I got the Spectra. But I paid a lot less than that back two years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001DAHM2K?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Thx for the link. Clicked it and Amazon had a used very good one for $10! I hope it is actually a dizzie they send me

Wisdom, knowledge and intelligence are three very different things.

1971 convertible, H-code, Ram Air

1971 Mach I, M-code, Ram Air

1972 Mexican GT-351

1988 Bronco II

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Still not totally comfortable with this whole mess.  But here we go. 
 

H-pipe disconnected, tranny crossmember bolts loose, sway bar removed, fan shroud loosened.

image.jpg

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Got the new oil pump in.  The old one was marked high volume.

I did fill the pump with oil before installing.  Do you all think I should pull the dizzy and prime the pump again, or just crank the engine to prime since it is broken in?

I really didn’t think I would get that far today.

kcmash

5B800A06-76CA-4E03-848E-DEC8DC65E24E.jpeg

5B5DE0C2-F8C2-4FAE-9FBE-FABEC9DA92E6.jpeg

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Just to be on the safe side I would pull the distributor and make sure you're getting oil pressure and make sure everything has fresh oil, it looks pretty well drained off everything.

As an alternative, pull the coil wire off and crank it until you get oil pressure.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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This whole mess came about from your distributor breaking and you having to replace it.  So you've already got to mess with reinstalling the distributor and setting your timing.  I vote yank the distributor off and use a drill and the tool to spin the oil pump and prime the system.  Its not that much more work.

Maybe while you have the pan off, you can use your access to the pistons to verify you're at true TDC and make sure your timing mark is accurate.  That always helps me feel better about loosening or removing the distributor.  Knowing that when you put it on, you can trust your timing marks.

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9 hours ago, giantpune said:

This whole mess came about from your distributor breaking and you having to replace it.  So you've already got to mess with reinstalling the distributor and setting your timing.  I vote yank the distributor off and use a drill and the tool to spin the oil pump and prime the system.  Its not that much more work.

Maybe while you have the pan off, you can use your access to the pistons to verify you're at true TDC and make sure your timing mark is accurate.  That always helps me feel better about loosening or removing the distributor.  Knowing that when you put it on, you can trust your timing marks.

Don't forget to run the drill in reverse, counterclockwise.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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16 minutes ago, Stanglover said:

Don't forget to run the drill in reverse, counterclockwise.

And run the drill at the lower sleed if it has a speed selector. If not the drill may smoke.

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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