Down the "more power is always better" rabbit hole?

So, '73 Vert, swapped in rebuilt 351c 4v cc heads stock (non-adjustable) rockers, blue thunder manifold 650 cfm holley, dual exhaust, hookers T5 Z spec, 4.11 posi reat, dyno'd around 350 shaft hp before swapping in the bt manifold (obtained engine from estate of rebuilder, thus no idea of cam specs or pistons).

Made the mistake of accepting a ride in friend's Hellcat Cuda and I'm having serious hp/torq envy. Have set of rebuilt 1970 cc heads with adjustable rockers debating doing new roller cam and lifters. Can I see enough of a gain (without doing pistons) to make it worth it? Do I need any of it? No, the car is a street only cruiser. Do I really gain anything (besides another adjustment to go out of spec) by changing to adjustable rockers? She's more than fast enough now. Interested in the groups thoughts

A lot of the new cars can, in stock form, turn quarter mile times that once, only dedicated drag race built cars could achieve. Truthfully, the new cars do just about everything better than our old street muscle, they're quieter, they get better mileage, put out far less emissions, have better brakes, more trunk space,etc,etc. Fact is...WHO CARES! Any one with good credit can walk right in this afternoon and buy a new 'vette, Audi, Subaru, Honda, even Mustang or Camaro, with all the performance options. That doesn't make you a car guy, that just says you have good credit. Currently, there are ten times the Hot Rod owners than there are Hot Rodders them selves. To own an old car, is to want all that comes with it, good or bad, an old car ower is an enthusiast. It is not a competition of speed. Uniqueness, styling, statement, define our old cars. By the time you get your Old Mustang to beat a Hellcat, you have f**ked up a classic, and have spent enough to BUY a Hellcat. Just sayin'

I agree with spike, My friend has a 2004 GTO that can walk my mustang, but I get WAY more attention driving down the road. Yes its fun to add some HP, but our old cars will never do what new cars do. But they look way better doing what they do!

It depends on how close to optimal the current cam is and how close to optimal the new cam would be. By 350 "shaft" HP do you mean flywheel (engine dyno) or wheel HP (chassis dyno)? Making 400-425 HP is easy if the components are well matched. Do you have any pictures of the tops of the pistons? Without knowing what the static compression ratio is it is impossible to select a cam that is close to optimal. Chuck

Just trying to "upgrade" your combination isn't going to get you there. Modern "muscle" cars have distinct advantages from electronic engine controls, better (lighter, stronger and less friction) internal components and BOOST.

Our advantage is the COOL factor... especially with the top down

More HP / torque doesn't always mean better performance. Gears will give you the push me into the seat feeling that you're looking for relatively inexpensively. Want to feel it without spending a dime? Get in the passenger seat, you'll be suprised how different the performance feels. I once owned a Porsche 924S that had a 150hp 4 cyl. 0 - 60 was 7.5, 1/8th mile 11.4 and 1/4 mile 14.3. Compare those numbers with 306HP classic Mustangs. My Mustangs are much preferred, but just HP/ torque doesn't make performance.

I just want to add , that I am a car guy, and a hot rod guy, and I DO think it's cool and a lot of fun to hop-up and customize Mustangs, or whatever blows your hair back. It was the reference to beating a Hellcat, that woke me up. Old cars and new cars, are an apples and oranges arguement. How about building your Mustang to spank a 60-70 Z-28? THAT would be cooler.

Spanking a '69 Z? My wife says there's nuthin' to it.

Yep. Grocery getters, socrer mom SUVs, and economy shitboxes from today are every bit as fast as the performance model muscle cars 50 years ago. Thats what progress and innovation look like.

You can get a 73 car to go that fast and handle as well as a current muscle car. The recipe is gonna look something like
Replace your engine and transmission with something newer.
Swap over to fuel injection.
Replace your suspension with coil overs and IRS.
Enough brakes to stop all that power.
Basically replace everything thing besides the body and interior.

Quickest path these days is an LS swap, with boost. Yes, you can even LS swap old fords if you hold your nose while doing it. Whipple or a pair of angry snails, dyno tune, and you're set.

IMHO, which isn't worth much, what do we need all that power for. I sure hate to see it on the street. It just doesnt belong there. I do enjoy seeing it on the track. I have grandkids that will play near the neighbohood street, and i am always telling them not to go out there, but kids will be kids. It only takes a second and here comes some fool hotrodding down the street and we have a disaster. Thats not even mentioning the families driving down a street. As a classic owner, I cringe when I am driving in a city wide cruise and I get behind a car with slicks and a blower. I do everything I can to get away from them before they do a burnout and throw gravel and rubber all over my cherished ride. I just dont think it belongs on the street.

For those that have followed my build, you know that I have gone that "rabbit hole." It has taken a lot of work and dough to get there. I have a car that still keeps a stock exterior look but the interior guts have all been upgraded. The typical 90% out there will never realize all the upgrades I have made since I have always tried to upgrade without losing the classic look. I can't beat a Hellcat but I can beat your standard Charger or Mustang.

Some advantages to our old cars is that we are not being tracked by GPS (unless we choose to be). No data recorders and many of us have not done a fuel injection conversion. That means in the event of an Electro magnetic pulse the old analog cars will most likely still function. I do get a lot of thumbs up. Especially from other Ford guys. My neighbor just got his 2023 Vette delivered and of course I checked it out. It is interesting and has lots of functions but in the end I was Meh. It is a Chevy after all.

Ron

I’m happy with 600ish hp. Actually drives great on the street and can destroy the tires any time I ask it.
My old engine was around 400hp or so. This one is a night and day difference. Much more fun to drive. But you do have to be careful because it’s a handful. Gotta have it pointed where you want to go before you land on the loud pedal.

Ron Tanzi said:

Some advantages to our old cars is that we are not being tracked by GPS (unless we choose to be). No data recorders and many of us have not done a fuel injection conversion. That means in the event of an Electro magnetic pulse the old analog cars will most likely still function. I do get a lot of thumbs up. Especially from other Ford guys. My neighbor just got his 2023 Vette delivered and of course I checked it out. It is interesting and has lots of functions but in the end I was Meh. It is a Chevy after all.

Ron

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So true Ron.
I have a lot of thumbs up from many people too, more so than a good buddy of mine who also has a C8 Vette. He does however get "thumbs up" when he's driving his 75 C3 convertible.
Point being, Classics Rule!

turtle5353 said:

I’m happy with 600ish hp. Actually drives great on the street and can destroy the tires any time I ask it.
My old engine was around 400hp or so. This one is a night and day difference. Much more fun to drive. But you do have to be careful because it’s a handful. Gotta have it pointed where you want to go before you land on the loud pedal.

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Yep, even the new cars are a handful if you turn off traction control. The electronic controls have a lot to do with getting the power to the ground.
Lots of youtube videos of drivers underestimating just how well some of these new cars can 'go'.

detritusmaximus said:

Yep, even the new cars are a handful if you turn off traction control. The electronic controls have a lot to do with getting the power to the ground.
Lots of youtube videos of drivers underestimating just how well some of these new cars can 'go'.

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And to that point, some of the new cars is it hard or next to impossible to turn off the training wheels.

Some of them won't let you hold the brake and give it gas to burn out. They cut the throttle when the brake is pressed.
Some of them wont allow traction control to be turned off, so you cant even do a doughnut in the grocery store parking lot.
And let not forget the ones that take the engine RPM signal across the CAN bus and generate some fake engine noise they play over the stereo speakers.

I know a guy with the high end 370z nismo package. You have to void your warranty to flash the ECU to take off some of the training wheels. Or you have to cut into the wiring harness and solder a chip in some home made 3D printed case to bypass them.

For 10% of the drivers, they are 'training wheels', for the other 90% they are safety devices to protect everyone else.

c9zx said:

It depends on how close to optimal the current cam is and how close to optimal the new cam would be. By 350 "shaft" HP do you mean flywheel (engine dyno) or wheel HP (chassis dyno)? Making 400-425 HP is easy if the components are well matched. Do you have any pictures of the tops of the pistons? Without knowing what the static compression ratio is it is impossible to select a cam that is close to optimal. Chuck

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Unfortunately I bought the engine already rebuilt as part of a multi swap deal, the 350 hp was engine dyno/ at the flywheel with the stock manifold before swapping to the BT and before it was installed in the car. I assume I can get a pic of the tops of the pistons using a cam inserted through the spark plug hole, otherwise have no idea about the internals.

I agree totally about what it is about our cars that makes my blood boil. I made the decision to get it after my bmw refused to accept a non-bmw license plate bulb. Went from 68 fuses and relays and multiple computers to 8 fuses and never again having to ask my car Mother, may I? when I want to do or change something. And I have no regrets. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally have hp/torque envy. Wouldn't want to scrap the 351c for an LS (maybe a 429, but I understand they bring along their own handling issues). I love our cars and reactions and the sheer fun and excitement of driving them, and the sound of the engine under power. Wouldn't trade it, doesn't mean I never want more or better

Attached are the raw data and the charted data

A BMW specific light bulb? That is sad and funny at the same time. As I said 400-425 HP is easily done without spending a fortune, If you can supply most of the labor. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Chuck

There used to be a saying, and a bumper sticker that read...."Ban low performance drivers, not High-Performance cars". Having just said that, power is fun to have, but a responsibility and competence is required. Here's my analogy......In the movie "Ben Hur", in the chariot race, the race was won because Juda Ben -Hur knew how to control his horsepower, he didn't just let them go, to show off. Driving skill and restraint make the difference. They ALL had four horsepower.