Cole's build thread.... am I missing something here

[Cole]

Who's Justin? lol they are one piece stainless steel valves with the 3 angle grind done to them and stock replacement 4v valve springs


stock bore is 4.000 I believe

Whoops. Jason. LOL Sorry Bro.

 

[auron73mach1]

3rd time is the charm lol jordan

 

[mustang7173]

Hello Cole,

The Holley 750 DP is way too much carburetor for this setup. Checkout the Holley Carburetor Configuration

https://www.holley.com/applications/CarburetorSelector/CarbSelection.asp

From a stock 351C 4V with no to mild modifications, street, manual choke, a Holley 650 DP will get the job done.

Note: Bolting on reworked cylinders to short block that has not been rebuilt could lead to blowing piston rings. This is due to higher compression from the rebuilt cylinder heads and old rings.

One of the Best Books on Ford Engines to have-

Ford Performance: Includes All Modern Ford Pushrod Performance Engines

by Pat Ganahl, Greg Compton (Designed by), Larry Schrieb (Editor)

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ford-performance-pat-ganahl/1003504632?ean=9781884089275

Mustang Monthly Article:

351 Cleveland Roller-Cam Conversions

http://www.mustangmonthly.com/howto/26378/

A must for running a modern 351C. Flat tappets still required zinc in the oil for proper lubrication. Roller cam does not!

Competition Cams Ford Hydraulic Roller Retro-Fit Kit

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=31-1000&Category_Code=HRLKits

Intake manifold-The helps keep the fuel and air mixtures cooler leading to better combustion.

Ford 351 Cleveland V8

RPM AIR-GAP 351C (1500-6500 rpm)

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/ford/rpm_air_gap-351c.shtml

Wish Book List! Wow!

351C Scat Engine Kits

http://www.probeindustries.com/Ford_351C_Scat_Based_Engine_Kits_s/302112.htm

Just my two cents worth!

mustang7173

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

mustang7173, I am curious. Is your above post based upon real world experience? I did the exact conversion that Cole is contemplating and your suggestions would make it a $5,000 plus project. I did mine for 1500.00 and got years of fun use out of it.

A 750 double pumper is fine on a Cleveland despite what a computer calculator says and I ran both a 700 DP and then changed to an 850 DP with no problems in driveability. A 650 would cost the engine power and driveability especially with a cam upgrade.

Zinc oil is widely available as long as you take the time to look for it as are zinc additives. There is not a damn thing wrong with either a solid lifter cam or a flat tappet hydraulic lifter cam and either will cost 1/5th of what a hydraulic roller cam set up will cost and won't require multiple modifications to the heads and block and oiling system.

a fresh top end will certainly make a short block's existing weaknesses more visible, but it isn't going to make it fall apart either.

You have provided some good links and some good material, but you are way over the top with some of your recommendations too.

 

[73vertproject]

It sounds like you're seriously considering pulling the block and freshening up the bottom end. If so, I would get the Chilton Engine Rebuilding book. I would send you mine but I'm still in Montana.

After I pulled my block and thought the cylinders were in spec using a good gauge from the Auto Shop, and honed them to a perfect 60 degree cross hatch, I had an engine machinist come by, check the cylinders and tell me that I needed to hone the block .030 over. I went ahead and had it done, as well as turning the crank .020, and haven't regretted it once. It's an extra cost for pistons, rings, and machining, but putting a brand new top to bottom engine in gave me a lot of peace of mind.

Make sure you put one-piece valves in when you put it back together.

 

[Don65Stang]

mustang7173, I am curious. Is your above post based upon real world experience? I did the exact conversion that Cole is contemplating and your suggestions would make it a $5,000 plus project. I did mine for 1500.00 and got years of fun use out of it.

A 750 double pumper is fine on a Cleveland despite what a computer calculator says and I ran both a 700 DP and then changed to an 850 DP with no problems in driveability. A 650 would cost the engine power and driveability especially with a cam upgrade.

Zinc oil is widely available as long as you take the time to look for it as are zinc additives. There is not a damn thing wrong with either a solid lifter cam or a flat tappet hydraulic lifter cam and either will cost 1/5th of what a hydraulic roller cam set up will cost and won't require multiple modifications to the heads and block and oiling system.

a fresh top end will certainly make a short block's existing weaknesses more visible, but it isn't going to make it fall apart either.

You have provided some good links and some good material, but you are way over the top with some of your recommendations too.

Well said Jeff; I agree. Mustang7173 has presented some ideas that don't quite match up with how a 351C was uniquely designed. It takes a thorough understanding of and hands on experience with these engines before making any build suggestion because they are hugely different from their Windsor cousins and a world's distance away from Chevy engineering.

The Holley 750 DP is way too much carburetor for this setup. Checkout the Holley Carburetor Configuration

https://www.holley.com/applications/CarburetorSelector/CarbSelection.asp

From a stock 351C 4V with no to mild modifications, street, manual choke, a Holley 650 DP will get the job done.

mustang7173

I respectfully disagree with your carb advice and wanted to provide some information (a quote of a few paragraphs) from George Pence.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265

Both the 351C 2V and the 351C 4V have higher volumetric efficiency than the popular in-line-valve V8s people are more familiar with; at wide open throttle the vacuum in their intake manifolds will drop lower than it does in those other V8s if the carburetor is large enough to allow it. This is the reason larger carburetors are recommended for the Cleveland engine series. If an owner allows the popular literature to influence their choice in carburetors, they shall end up strangling their Cleveland motor with a carburetor that is too small.

On top of that the 351C 4V is capable of operating over an extraordinarily wide power band, certainly wider than any other OHV engine from its era. The first 351C 4V performance manifolds designed by Ford were designed for list #4575 Holley Dominator carburetors (1050 cfm)! Ford’s earliest carburetor recommendations also included the Holley 850 cfm double pumper. The 351 Cleveland engines require carburetors designed for engines having higher volumetric efficiency and in the case of the 351C 4V a wide power band too. The usual carburetor choices for a 351C 2V usually range from 650cfm to 750cfm; for the 351C 4V those choices usually range from 750cfm to 850cfm. None of these carburetors are too big for a 351C street motor, especially if they are equipped with annular booster venturis. With a 351C 4V street motor it is a challenge to find a carburetor that performs well at low rpm while also being large enough to take advantage of the WOT (wide open throttle) volumetric efficiency of that motor.

Annular booster venturis atomize fuel better and provide a stronger fuel metering signal at low air velocity. In other words, annular booster venturis benefit the low rpm and mid-rpm performance of a motor in the same manner as the smaller primary throttle bores of a spread bore carburetor. These attributes make annular booster venturis popular for improving the low rpm operation of performance engines, where they have earned a reputation for improving torque, horsepower and throttle response at low engine speeds. However the improvement in fuel atomization distributes fuel more consistently throughout an intake manifold, resulting in more consistent fuel/air ratio from cylinder to cylinder, therefore annular booster venturis actually improve torque and horsepower across a motor's entire power band; and they improve fuel economy too! The only drawbacks of annular booster venturis include their larger physical size (which reduces the airflow capability of a carburetor by a relatively small amount) and their greater cost of manufacture.

Mechanical secondary/annular booster carburetors featuring street calibration and electric chokes

*Demon Carburetors #1282020 - 650 cfm - Speed Demon, mech. secondary, elec. choke kit #421440

*Demon Carburetors #1402020 - 750 cfm - Speed Demon, mech. secondary, elec. choke kit #421440

*Demon Carburetors #1563020 - 850 cfm - Speed Demon, mech. secondary, elec. choke kit #421440

*Holley #0-9379 - 750 cfm - Competition Series, mech. secondary, choke horn equipped

*Holley #0-9380 – 850 cfm - Competition Series, mech. secondary, choke horn equipped

*Quick Fuel Technologies (QFT) #SS-650-AN – 650 cfm – SS Series, mech. secondary, electric choke

*Quick Fuel Technologies (QFT) #SS-750-AN – 750 cfm – SS Series, mech. secondary, electric choke

Vacuum secondary/ annular booster carburetors featuring street calibration and electric chokes

*Demon Carburetors #1282020VE - 650 cfm - Speed Demon, vac. secondary, electric choke

*Demon Carburetors #1402020VE - 750 cfm - Speed Demon, vac. secondary, electric choke

*Demon Carburetors #1563020VE - 850 cfm - Speed Demon, vac. secondary, electric choke

*Summit Racing #M08600VS - 600 cfm – vac. secondary, electric choke

*Summit Racing #M08750VS - 750 cfm – vac. secondary, electric choke

Vacuum secondary/down-leg booster carburetors featuring street calibration and electric chokes

*Quick Fuel Technologies (QFT) #SS-680-VS - 680 cfm – SS Series, vac. secondary, electric choke

*Quick Fuel Technologies (QFT) #SS-735-VS - 735 cfm – SS Series, vac. secondary, electric choke

*Quick Fuel Technologies (QFT) #SS-780-VS - 780 cfm – SS Series, vac. secondary, electric choke

 

[mustang7173]

The science says,

CFM, Cubic Feet per Minute of air flow. This is the number that determines how much air your engine flows or requires at maximum operating RPM. CFM is used to determine the size of the carburetor you need. It is calculated using the following formula. It's important to get your carburetor the correct size for several reasons. By over carbureting you reduce or lose low-end performance, economy, vacuum signal and throttle response. Under carbureting will limit your upper end horsepower and usable RPM range. On a typical stock motor that number is around 80-85%, on a street performance motor that number can increase from 85-90%. On a very hot street motor that number can go as high as 95%. On all out race motors that number can exceed 100%, but only for a very small RPM band. For the sake of building a street motor, use 90% VE when sizing a carburetor, just to be on the safe side.

• CFM = Displacement X RPM X VE / 3456

• Example: CFM = 351 CI X 6000 RPM X 90% Volumetric Efficiency / 3456

• CFM = 351 X 6000 X .90 / 3456 = 546.87

• CFM = 548.4375

mustang7173

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

You are absolutely right if you change the wording to conventional scientific theory instead of science.

I used $600 worth of dyno time a few years back with 3 different carbs ranging from 650 to 850 and proper jetting of the carbs made a far bigger difference than which carb we were trying.

 

[mustang7173]

Nope,

This NOT conventional scientific theory! It is just real science. But, maybe this forum has produced a few geniuses here. Oh, Maybe Summit Racing has their formula has it wrong too!

By the way , I do not do Chevy's!

mustang7173

 

[Don65Stang]

Popcorn anyone?

That formula is a mathematical model that attempts to define flow ratios of normal engines. It is great for Windsors and Chevys but ever compared the port size of a Cleavland 4V head to any other engine? That formula should be up-sized accordingly.

Let's get this thread back on topic and address Mark's engine concerns before I have to intervene with the moderator skill set. If you want to discuss the best carb size needed for a 351C then start a new thread. Any more carb bickering posts (myself included) will be deleted.

Mark's original post is about getting his engine running and reliable "with the parts already acquired and ones to be purchased will allow a strong motor that can handle any daily driving conditions plus be an above average performer." He already owns a 750 Holley DP carb. Let's let him install and report back how big his smile is.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I agree not to agree to agree about agreeing.

 

[OMS]

I agree not to agree to agree about agreeing.

Hey now...

Jeff that sounds like " legal speak " to me :dodgy:

 

[marks73]

Nope,

This NOT conventional scientific theory! It is just real science. But, maybe this forum has produced a few geniuses here. Oh, Maybe Summit Racing has their formula has it wrong too!

By the way , I do not do Chevy's!

mustang7173

Curious, Just how many high performance Ford engines have you built? Please list any Cleveland mods I have missed over the years.

 

[Don65Stang]

Guys,

Mustang7173 and I have been discussing his style of posting that has a few of us concerned. He apologized to me for coming across as a "know it all". He's actually a very nice guy who has 35+ years wrenching on cars. He agreed to better craft his posts so they open the discussion so we all can share our experiances. So let's cut him some slack on his past posts and enjoy our big body brotherhood.

 

[caspianwendell]

Guys,

Mustang7173 and I have been discussing his style of posting that has a few of us concerned. He apologized to me for coming across as a "know it all". He's actually a very nice guy who has 35+ years wrenching on cars. He agreed to better craft his posts so they open the discussion so we all can share our experiances. So let's cut him some slack on his past posts and enjoy our big body brotherhood.

Very nicely said...Good job Don

 

[Cole]

I cleaned up the other half of the block (passenger side 5-8??) last night. The welded spot was just some thick rust. All the ports opened up just fine but still a little concerned about particles. Surely there a flush to take care of most of that.

Getting my wish list on Summit together. Thanks Don for the heads up on the oil pump and shaft. Added a high volume oil pump and heavy duty shaft to the list.

Hopefully tonight I can finish pulling off the water pump and see how that timing cover comes off. Slow but steady.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I think what you want is a high pressure pump with a standard pan. If you use a high volume pump with a standard pan, you can fill the top end with oil and starve the bottom end.

Removing the timing cover requires pulling the balancer, use a proper puller. to protect the threads in the crank I recommend loosening the bolt, but leaving it threaded in partially and using the puller until you hit the bolt, then back the bolt further out and repeat until the balancer is free.

Passenger side is 1-4 BTW

 

[73vertproject]

I think what you want is a high pressure pump with a standard pan. If you use a high volume pump with a standard pan, you can fill the top end with oil and starve the bottom end.

Removing the timing cover requires pulling the balancer, use a proper puller. to protect the threads in the crank I recommend loosening the bolt, but leaving it threaded in partially and using the puller until you hit the bolt, then back the bolt further out and repeat until the balancer is free.

Passenger side is 1-4 BTW

Yup, to everything Jeff just said.

 

[mustbrad]

I used high volume on my last build and had oil starved bearings don't know if that was the issue but have been told to use standard volume pumps. to help keep oil in pan like Jeff said.

 

[Don65Stang]

Why a high pressure or high volume oil pump for a stock to mild engine?