Door hinges and Pin kit

[Fabrice]

Busy on prepping the car for paint (Its -6 c (21.2 F) over here, so no rush)

I was busy inspecting the door hinges, and saw the driver side was good for a pin change on both hinges.

So ordered a set.

I've changed a few times pins on my T-birds and different cars, where the side hinges to body are bolted on some plate/studs that is kept in place

or on t-birds, welded.

I do know from a mistake I did back in the 80's, while attempting to rust/protect behind the hinges that our mustangs have a plate behind

that is kept in place by the 3 bolts and obeys to the law of gravity if you remove the 3... 

As the Scott drake pin kit was not avail, I've ordered the basic kit 65/73. Not really a prob or lesser quality, just that this kit means cut to fit.

Which you do better with the hinges no longer on the car.

So the question is: What would be the best way to remove these hinges without worry about these plates (so they don't fall)

and by extend, prevent me to practice unwanted gym under the dashboard?

Is there a trick to keep them in place? or is glue/kit/screw them from the inside before unscrew the only option?

 

[kcmash]

The plates should not fall out if I remember correctly.

There should be little tabs that lock the plate in place.  Sometimes they have been broken off over time.  I have never had them fall out myself.

You could always remove the kick panel and put some kind of stop in with a magnet, or some VHB tape.  

BTW.  If you want some spare hinges to rebuild, paint, and swap one by one to maintain door alignment I have a few spare sets I can part with.

kcmash

 

[Bentworker]

Busy on prepping the car for paint (Its -6 c (21.2 F) over here, so no rush)

I was busy inspecting the door hinges, and saw the driver side was good for a pin change on both hinges.

So ordered a set.

I've changed a few times pins on my T-birds and different cars, where the side hinges to body are bolted on some plate/studs that is kept in place

or on t-birds, welded.

I do know from a mistake I did back in the 80's, while attempting to rust/protect behind the hinges that our mustangs have a plate behind

that is kept in place by the 3 bolts and obeys to the law of gravity if you remove the 3... 

As the Scott drake pin kit was not avail, I've ordered the basic kit 65/73. Not really a prob or lesser quality, just that this kit means cut to fit.

Which you do better with the hinges no longer on the car.

So the question is: What would be the best way to remove these hinges without worry about these plates (so they don't fall)

and by extend, prevent me to practice unwanted gym under the dashboard?

Is there a trick to keep them in place? or is glue/kit/screw them from the inside before unscrew the only option?

The plates are held in place by bent tabs.  They drop in the top, and should stay in place.  That being said anything is possible and not knowing the condition of them or the fasteners it isn't 100% guaranteed that they will stay in place, but I give you a strong 95%.

 

[Fabrice]

I've mentioned gravity because that's exactly what at least the upper one did back then: felt in some place between body metal and had hard time to get it out.

If there were some kind of tab, guide or anything to hold them, as I've removed everything to be able to get it back, I've probably put it back as expected.

But its been a while and I have no clue.

So I guess as you guys say it should not fall and me not remembering anything except it felt in the first place. I'm gonna have to check it out and secure it with whatever tape/magnets/kit... required.

So thx for the replies!

@kcmash thx for the offer! Already marked them, as the previous paint job may have been done with the hinges with a little play, I expect I'll have to redo the alignment anyway. Plus, now that all bolts were removed one by one, cleaned, greased and set back, I do not expect much work to replace the pins. So magnets or strong tape will do.

 

[Fabrice]

was looking at this vid on a cougar, same job, same hinges and pin kit.



and at 10:42, for the upper hinge, the guy talks about adding a stud to prevent the plate to fall.

So I think that exactly what I did wrong and what I will not repeat

 

[mustang7173]

Fabrice,

Scrap the standard pin kit and install the Mustang Steve's door hinge kit. I installed this kit. KCmash's recommendation on procuring another set of door hinges is a good idea.

https://www.mustangsteve.com/product/do-it-yourself-rebuild-kit-71-73/



Picture Source: Mustang Steve CR: 2018

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

LOL, grease fittings. How many times are you going to open and close it?

That is overkill and for sure not needed. So you grease if once and never again I guess.

Just a little info on bushings. I was the engineering manager at the largest lawn mower plant in the world. When I worked there we made 5,000 riding mowers a day, 20,000 walk behind mowers a day and 1,000 garden tillers a day.

In our testing the front axles on the riding mowers lasted longer with just plastic bushing than with grease fittings. Without proper seals to keep the grit out the grease mixes with the dust and makes it a lapping compound so it wears faster. But people perceived the sight of a grease fitting as being quality. They put some fittings in holes that did not even grease anything they were there just for people to see and feel good about. Same with welding. Some welds were added so people could see them and actually did nothing but make them feel good. Many things in mfg. are perceived as being better when they actually are not.

That being said a great door hinge needs thrust ball bearings and needle bearings and an oil pump to last a 1,000 years, lol.

David

 

[Fabrice]

@mustang7173, I saw this kit. As I've used the simple one a few times and never noticed wear/play years after install. I went for it again.

I wanted the other simple kit, because of the pin length. I think simplicity wins here.

May the kit fail at some point, that would actually be a good news: that would mean I do use my mustang again vs it being a garage queen!

@David

[a great door hinge needs thrust ball bearings and needle bearings and an oil pump to last a 1,000 years]

Only if you use the right oil, change the hinges filters every 5000 openings and don't forget to let your car be at operating temp before opening the door.

 

[Hemikiller]

LOL, good one David.

I used the standard bushings and pin kits that are on the HELP! rack at the parts stores. IIRC, I had to do a little customization to make them work, but they are still fine fifteen years later.

 

[kcmash]

My take is this.(yep I am a an engineer too)

The hinge pins for our cars are cheap and fairly easy to replace.  Our doors are VERY big and heavy.  If something is going to wear out whether it’s after 10,00 or 100,000 cycles I would rather it Ben the pin and bushing versus the hinge itsself.

If I were to design an “improved” hinge pin it would likely be drop in pin with a through hole for a retainer pin.  Then when bushings wear I simply open the door,  support the latch end, remove the pin and bushings, replace with a drop in pin and lock pin and i am done.  No hinge removal, no grinding, staking or repaint.

Kcmash

 

[Fabrice]

If I were to design, thats not the hinges i'd redo they are fine considering what they hold in place,

more likely the entire door and while at it the interior so you could go for a trip with more luggage than a newspaper and a pack of cigs.

That's probably why I love these cars, extreme and a little silly in many ways

 

[Mister 4x4]

Ya know, I went with the Mustang Steve hinge kit, and I love 'em.  All things considered with my car's history, a little extra piece of mind is never a bad thing.  The doors open and close butter smooth now, whereas when they simply had rust & worn out bushings they creaked and felt like they had extra detents.

I have no regrets, and my car will never be mistaken for a concourse participant.  

 

[Fabrice]

After almost 6 weeks waiting my pin kit, it arrived yesterday...

So as I've started this thread, lets add some (useful) extra to it.

First: I know why the door plate inside can fall (and why it did years ago)

The bolts holding the hinges, go thru body and the plate, but a small part of the bolts threads is beyond the thread and having light rust.

So when you turn the bolts loose, the last turns are actually bits harder. The plate is held in plate with small pins left and right, and lays on a guide beneath it. it cannot fall EXCEPTED if you lift the plate a bit and rotate it, which is the way ford thought to install/remove it.

But if you have a bit of rust at the end of the thread, the very last bolt is doing exactly that. The hinge no longer pulling, the plate can fall.

So in case you have to do this at some point, here easy 2 tips to prevent this and the painful task to fish that plate back.

First remove one bolt completely, clean/brush it and set back with a rich amount of grease. Set it back in and out a few time till it rotates smooth into the thread. Remove it. Now, as seen in video posted before, use a stud. I've used a intake/carb one I got laying around. Same thread. Once in place, turned by hand just enough so you can get it out easy later on. Then loose one by one the other remaining bolts repeating the same treatment as the first one. On the last one, make sure to hold with your hand the hinge against the car.



The install on itself went as expected, but for those who never did it, here's how that goes using the more or less universal kit.

You first need to cut or grind the upper pin seal. On mine, it was likely the original and was installed with a press.

Once grinded, tick it with a tube/screwdriver of small radius.

Using a flat screwdriver lift the old bronze washers out. In my case the above one, was in 2 pieces totally gone, but no metal to metal. The holes were round.



This kit supposed to cover mustangs 65-73 is way longer than whats needed (left on image) , so I've simply taped what I needed.

Cut it and then ensure you create a smooth chamfer, so that no damage can be made on the new bronze washers.

For this kit, turns out that tapping it in place is not enough. The height of the region on top of the axle with the teeth that will ensure it stays in place and turns with the hinge, is bits too long. So I had to use my vice to press it further down.



Install of the hinges back on the car is the exact reverse and having perfectly clean/rust free/greased bolts now, all went as butter.

The play the door was having is already gone but I will change the other one as well tomorrow.

 

[tony-muscle]

Working on this project this week. As an idea of what to expect, how heavy are our doors? 100lbs?

 

[goodnigh]

Working on this project this week. As an idea of what to expect, how heavy are our doors? 100lbs?

I would guess well over 100 pounds.

Replaced the hinge pins a while back,

think we used a scissor jack.

mike

 

[OMS]

After almost 6 weeks waiting my pin kit, it arrived yesterday...

So as I've started this thread, lets add some (useful) extra to it.

First: I know why the door plate inside can fall (and why it did years ago)

The bolts holding the hinges, go thru body and the plate, but a small part of the bolts threads is beyond the thread and having light rust.

So when you turn the bolts loose, the last turns are actually bits harder. The plate is held in plate with small pins left and right, and lays on a guide beneath it. it cannot fall EXCEPTED if you lift the plate a bit and rotate it, which is the way ford thought to install/remove it.

But if you have a bit of rust at the end of the thread, the very last bolt is doing exactly that. The hinge no longer pulling, the plate can fall.

So in case you have to do this at some point, here easy 2 tips to prevent this and the painful task to fish that plate back.

First remove one bolt completely, clean/brush it and set back with a rich amount of grease. Set it back in and out a few time till it rotates smooth into the thread. Remove it. Now, as seen in video posted before, use a stud. I've used a intake/carb one I got laying around. Same thread. Once in place, turned by hand just enough so you can get it out easy later on. Then loose one by one the other remaining bolts repeating the same treatment as the first one. On the last one, make sure to hold with your hand the hinge against the car.



The install on itself went as expected, but for those who never did it, here's how that goes using the more or less universal kit.

You first need to cut or grind the upper pin seal. On mine, it was likely the original and was installed with a press.

Once grinded, tick it with a tube/screwdriver of small radius.

Using a flat screwdriver lift the old bronze washers out. In my case the above one, was in 2 pieces totally gone, but no metal to metal. The holes were round.



This kit supposed to cover mustangs 65-73 is way longer than whats needed (left on image) , so I've simply taped what I needed.

Cut it and then ensure you create a smooth chamfer, so that no damage can be made on the new bronze washers.

For this kit, turns out that tapping it in place is not enough. The height of the region on top of the axle with the teeth that will ensure it stays in place and turns with the hinge, is bits too long. So I had to use my vice to press it further down.



Install of the hinges back on the car is the exact reverse and having perfectly clean/rust free/greased bolts now, all went as butter.

The play the door was having is already gone but I will change the other one as well tomorrow.

DO NOT grease or run a tap thought the plate bolt holes. They are designed to be tight and hard to turn, they are a special type of thread to keep the bolt tight

If the plate falls out it is sitting right there and very easy to reach with the kick panel removed

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

The reason the bolts are tight is that they were self tapping. They were not required to lock in they just do because of the rust and the fact that they are self threading makes them tight. There is no reason to have locking bolts in a door hinge. Ford saw less cost using the self tapping bolts over the cost of having to tap the holes the the nut plates in the door. When I remove them I actually run a tap into the nut plates to clean them up and apply never seize to the threads. 

I have a drawer full of reinforcing plates that Ford used that I kept from work in case I needed one. None of them have threads even in the weld nuts on some of them. 

If you have ever taken the bed off a Ford pick up you struggled getting the bolts out due to same thing they are self tapping. If you feel of the bolts they are not round they are triangle shaped and tapered to allow them to push the threads into the plates. The triangle shape also helps them to go in straight. Do not be concerned your doors are going to fall off they will not as long as you torque the bolts to proper torque they are not going to come off. They are a fact of bean counting not required locking. Self tapping bolts are used in lots of products. On the John Deere lawn mowers I put I think 12 in each frame rail. Instead of using a weld nut or tap plate I just extruded the hole to give additional thickness. The tri lobe bolts used to assemble the lawn mower forms the threads. Saves lots of assembly head aches trying to put a nut on the back side. This link will take you to one supplier that has explanation of them and how they work.

https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/fasteners/screws-and-bolts/taptite-2000

 

[Fabrice]

They are designed to be tight and hard to turn

If the plate falls out it is sitting right there and very easy to reach with the kick panel removed

Did not know this, it's true I've noticed they have a very tight tolerance but decades later, found 2 broken bolts on the 73 and the rest were rusty, so when you remove the old rusty ones, even brushed, you do "tap" them a bit anyway.

I have replaced the bolts with new ones and greased them (they actually came from your shop!!). They do indeed turn with tight tolerance (you won't be able to turn them by hand after 1 turn). Turned them multiple times almost to full torque and back a bit to adjust the door before torque them good. I'm pretty sure they won't get loose anytime soon no matter if a film of grease is present or not. But they won't rust in there ever again.

My 71 plates will receive the exact same treatment.

On my 73, fairly loaded with options, there are tons of wires in the way and one can(and did) fall deep enough and got stuck somehow.

I agree it "should" be easy tho in practice, it was a real pita to get it out. May be I got unlucky to have it really stuck down there.

As keeping a stud in the plate at all times prevent this, I'd say do not tempt the devil

 

[OMS]

The reason the bolts are tight is that they were self tapping. They were not required to lock in they just do because of the rust and the fact that they are self threading makes them tight. There is no reason to have locking bolts in a door hinge. Ford saw less cost using the self tapping bolts over the cost of having to tap the holes the the nut plates in the door. When I remove them I actually run a tap into the nut plates to clean them up and apply never seize to the threads. 

I have a drawer full of reinforcing plates that Ford used that I kept from work in case I needed one. None of them have threads even in the weld nuts on some of them. 

If you have ever taken the bed off a Ford pick up you struggled getting the bolts out due to same thing they are self tapping. If you feel of the bolts they are not round they are triangle shaped and tapered to allow them to push the threads into the plates. The triangle shape also helps them to go in straight. Do not be concerned your doors are going to fall off they will not as long as you torque the bolts to proper torque they are not going to come off. They are a fact of bean counting not required locking. Self tapping bolts are used in lots of products. On the John Deere lawn mowers I put I think 12 in each frame rail. Instead of using a weld nut or tap plate I just extruded the hole to give additional thickness. The tri lobe bolts used to assemble the lawn mower forms the threads. Saves lots of assembly head aches trying to put a nut on the back side. This link will take you to one supplier that has explanation of them and how they work.

https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/fasteners/screws-and-bolts/taptite-2000

" When I remove them I actually run a tap into the nut plates to clean them up and apply never seize to the threads."

When would this be, I don't recall you telling us about you removing and reinstalling a door on a 71-3

I just know from EXPERIENCE if you tap them they will be loose

I don't give a crap about you making 5000 lawn mowers a day or Stanley fasteners or your other BS

So how many of these plates you got laying around