EXCELLENT Paint brand

[philt]

Its been a while since I last posted. My 72 Kiger project is coming along and I hope to post pics of the massive 16" tubs that are welded up in the Mach this week. Im ordering the 411, 11" Narrowed helical gear rearend today so I can fit those P345s!

What I'm excited about is finding a new to me paint company that rivals PPG or any of the "big boys". Ive been a loyal follower of PPG and even though I always knew they were over priced, I always thought you get what you pay for.

I recently met Ben with TAMCO paint. A small paint manufacturer in VA. Ben has been in the business for 40 years and used to work for a large paint company (will remain un-named) as their chemist.

I told Ben I love PPGs D822 Epoxy primer since it was the only non-shrinking, easily sandable epoxy primer I have ever found. He looked up the MDS sheet and is formulating an equivalent for me at a fraction of the cost. http:// http://www.tamcopaint.com/

Give a look at their site and check out their products. I'm VERY impressed. If you want a black like PPGs #99 , use their black, its MUCH blacker.

If you dont see what you want email Ben, likely he can make it for you.

Yes you do get what you pay for but sometimes you get more.

 

[Qcode351mach]

I told Ben I love PPGs D822 Epoxy primer since it was the only non-shrinking, easily sandable epoxy primer I have ever found. He looked up the MDS sheet and is formulating an equivalent for me at a fraction of the cost. http:// http://www.tamcopaint.com/

Having been in the A/B Biz for over 25 years I have used every product out there..There are quite a few small paint company's who offer a high quality product at a reasonable price point BUT one of the best is Southern Poly Urethanes..Their products have been proven time & time again to out perform most others out there..at a cost savings price point especially their epoxy primer http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/

I have used Tamco products & it is a very good product line..I think though if they want to compete in the Epoxy primer arena SPI are the guys to match beat..not ppg..Almost ALL the top builders restoration guys are using their products..I will say this, there's no way in the world I would be the "Guinea pig" for a new untested long term, product in my own restoration WITHOUT a guarantee to reimburse me for my labor should the product fail..I was a Spies Hecker... Sikkins shop & both those company's had GENEROUS labor-- product warranty for long term should the product fail..

 

[philt]

I told Ben I love PPGs D822 Epoxy primer since it was the only non-shrinking, easily sandable epoxy primer I have ever found. He looked up the MDS sheet and is formulating an equivalent for me at a fraction of the cost. http:// http://www.tamcopaint.com/

Having been in the A/B Biz for over 25 years I have used every product out there..There are quite a few small paint company's who offer a high quality product at a reasonable price point BUT one of the best is Southern Poly Urethanes..Their products have been proven time & time again to out perform most others out there..at a cost savings price point especially their epoxy primer http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/

I have used Tamco products & it is a very good product line..I think though if they want to compete in the Epoxy primer arena SPI are the guys to match beat..not ppg..Almost ALL the top builders restoration guys are using their products..I will say this, there's no way in the world I would be the "Guinea pig" for a new untested long term, product in my own restoration WITHOUT a guarantee to reimburse me for my labor should the product fail..I was a Spies Hecker... Sikkins shop & both those company's had GENEROUS labor-- product warranty for long term should the product fail..

Thanks, QCode. I ordered a gallon from Andy at SPI just now. Ill be doing an A/B with Tamco and report back.

BTW, if you speak with Ben at TAMCO and find out his credentials, I dont think you would mind being his test subject. He REALLY knows his paint. He actually developed several of the high end paints you probably use by several manufacturers. I will not discuss brands but Im sure he can elaborate on the phone.

Pricing on these two manufacturers are 1/2 of PPG so Im excited to see how they perform!

 

[philt]

recieved the SPI paint yesterday.

Ill have to wait for the temp in Orlando to get back up to 65 degrees before I can apply this according to SPI.

Oh well. Hopefully this weekend.

 

[Qcode351mach]

recieved the SPI paint yesterday.

Ill have to wait for the temp in Orlando to get back up to 65 degrees before I can apply this according to SPI.

Oh well. Hopefully this weekend.

Make sure you follow the INSTRUCTIONS & PROCEDURES EXACTLY !! Also if you have used any products containing any type of acid for cleaning etc. or any type of self etch primer you must remove it neutralize if you don't the the epoxy will delaminate

 

[Austin Vert]

recieved the SPI paint yesterday.

Ill have to wait for the temp in Orlando to get back up to 65 degrees before I can apply this according to SPI.

Oh well. Hopefully this weekend.

Make sure you follow the INSTRUCTIONS & PROCEDURES EXACTLY !! Also if you have used any products containing any type of acid for cleaning etc. or any type of self etch primer you must remove it neutralize if you don't the the epoxy will delaminate

Hi Scott,

Thought i might jump in and ask a few questions.(Make a nuisance of myself i guess) You might know i'm a pro auto spratpainter here in Australia,and have been painting for about 37 years myself.

However, i'm a little curious about the use of epoxies like you're using in your engine bay.Firstly, we use the big company names like PPG and Spies,

Glasurit, Du Pont etc out here in Oz as well.However, there would be a few paint companies in America that we would not have heard of, and would know nothing or little about their products.

Why i'm curious, is that in Australia, we don't use epoxies in the auto refinish trade much at all. In the case of your engine bay epoxy primer job, we would use standard 2 Pak spray primers and putties to get the desired finish and durability results.

I'm know about polys and epoxies and their properties in general, but could you educate me, and give me a small list of reasons and answers about the benefits and advantages of using epoxy as adversed to using 2 Pak primer on an engine bay application such as yours. So what's it about epoxy that does it for you?

If you get a moment, let me know. You probably know a few things i don't on this one.

Many thanks,

Greg:

 

[philt]

UPDATE:

Since SPI recommends only their cleaner, I had to order that. So much for painting the rear fenders on the outside but I decided since the under wheel wheels were going to get second skin sound coating anyway, I would shoot the wheel wells with the SPI Epoxy.

It sprays nice enough but to be honest, it DOES NOT compare in build to PPGS D822

http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Global/EU091.pdf

This was a Global paint before PPG bought them.

not only does it sand easier, it builds about twice as much (4 mils per coat typical). I would estimate the SPI epoxy builds about 1/2 that. So if you want to block a really straight black, this primer doesnt come close to filling. D822 will EASILY fills 36 grit sand marks. Not that I do that, but it will.

But the down side is D822 is about $280.00 a gallon with reducer versus about $180 a gallon on the SPI. For me, the extra $100.00 is worth it....

Still awaiting my TAMCO equivelant of PPG D822.

Anyone that says SPI competes with D822 hasnt tried D822. PERIOD.

 

[Qcode351mach]

UPDATE:

Since SPI recommends only their cleaner, I had to order that. So much for painting the rear fenders on the outside but I decided since the under wheel wheels were going to get second skin sound coating anyway, I would shoot the wheel wells with the SPI Epoxy.

It sprays nice enough but to be honest, it DOES NOT compare in build to PPGS D822

This was a Global paint before PPG bought them.

not only does it sand easier, it builds about twice as much (4 mils per coat typical). I would estimate the SPI epoxy builds about 1/2 that. So if you want to block a really straight black, this primer doesnt come close to filling. D822 will EASILY fills 36 grit sand marks. Not that I do that, but it will.

But the down side is D822 is about $280.00 a gallon with reducer versus about $180 a gallon on the SPI. For me, the extra $100.00 is worth it....

Still awaiting my TAMCO equivelant of PPG D822.

Anyone that says SPI competes with D822 hasnt tried D822. PERIOD.

Phil..Epoxy primer isn't supposed to fill.. It's supposed isolate/ seal/ corrosion protection..In other words it's your base over BARE metal.. All your filling should be done with polyester putty etc. ON TOP OF THE EPOXY...THEN 2k primers for blocking wet sanding..All the 2 k primers are porous & absorb moisture where epoxy once cured will not absorb moisture..It's not a great Idea to use 2k or regular primer over bare metal..If you have ever noticed a car or part that gets primed with 2k over bare metal then sits for any length of time out side you will start to see surface rust through the primer..I will take the spi off your hands if you like.. Reading the D822 spec sheet it appears as if it's NOT a epoxy primer & just a regular 2k corrosion sealer primer..Big difference..

recieved the SPI paint yesterday.

Ill have to wait for the temp in Orlando to get back up to 65 degrees before I can apply this according to SPI.

Oh well. Hopefully this weekend.

Make sure you follow the INSTRUCTIONS & PROCEDURES EXACTLY !! Also if you have used any products containing any type of acid for cleaning etc. or any type of self etch primer you must remove it neutralize if you don't the the epoxy will delaminate

Greg see my reply to Phils post about the epoxy not filling..Comes down to corrosion protection & moisture absorption of conventional 2k primers.. they are porous..offer no isolation of the bare metal...

 

[philt]

Scott:

Typical Epoxy, you are correct. This EPOXY ELIMINATES the need for a 2K urethane high fill. Which is why I LIKE IT! 2K primers keep shrinking for up to year after they are applied. D822 does 98% of its total shrinking in the first 48 HOURS!!!!!. SUPER HIGH BUILD, TWICE that of the SPI high build 2K primer. (2 mil vs 4) .In 3 coats I can build 12 mils!!!!!

Let it sit for 48 hours and come back and block. Sands like putty. SAND IT DRY, fast and easy.

So when you have a perfectly straight black Vette. A year from now you have a perfectly straight black vette. If you use a 2K urethane primer.... ALL BETS are off. This is my trick to making a perfectly straight car stay straight for years after its painted....

I DO NOT USE 2K primers, they suck IMO. Fill they do... Shrink they do too.

So you are not changing my mind on this one... When you see a car I painted ten years ago lookas good as it did the day it was shot.. you know why.

 

[marks73]

Scott:

Typical Epoxy, you are correct. This EPOXY ELIMINATES the need for a 2K urethane high fill. Which is why I LIKE IT! 2K primers keep shrinking for up to year after they are applied. D822 dos 98% of its total shrinking in the first 48 HOURS!!!!!. SUPER HIGH BUILD, TWICE that of the SPI high build 2K primer. In 3 coats I can build 12 mils!!!!!

Let it sit for 48 hours and come back and block. Sands like putty. SAND IT DRY, fast and easy.

So when you have a perfectly straight black Vette. A year from now you have a perfectly straight black vette. If you use a 2K urethane primer.... ALL BETS are off. This is my trick to making a perfectly straight car stay straight for years after its painted....

I DO NOT USE 2K primers, they suck IMO. Fill they do... Shrink they do too.

So you are not changing my mind on this one... When you see a car I painted ten years ago lookas good as it did the day it was shot.. you know why.

BOYS! Lets play nice now this is a family forum after all!

 

[philt]

BTW, in the long run D822 is CHEAPER than using SPIs EPOXY and then going back with 2K primer.... I just sold myself!

I sure hope TAMCO can duplicate the MSDS! This will be a killer product if it were 1/2 the price.

 

[philt]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-and-c2-corvettes/3066027-gel-coat.html

Mike Colletta, a very good friend and the best painter I know turned me onto PPG D822.

Read his thread on the subject.

"I use PPG Global D822/823. It's a 3:1 mix. It is VERY high build as a surfacer. Then 3:1:1/2 for sealer, and 3:1:1 for primer. It sands like butter. I usually apply two wet coats, over 80 grit scratch, block with 80, apply two more coats, and block with 220. Shoot as a sealer, DA with 320, and paint!! One of the nice features is that you can spot it in if you have a particular spot that you're working on. It dries to sanding in about 1 hour. Pot life is short, about 2 hours."

Mike Coletta

 

[Austin Vert]

UPDATE:

Since SPI recommends only their cleaner, I had to order that. So much for painting the rear fenders on the outside but I decided since the under wheel wheels were going to get second skin sound coating anyway, I would shoot the wheel wells with the SPI Epoxy.

It sprays nice enough but to be honest, it DOES NOT compare in build to PPGS D822

This was a Global paint before PPG bought them.

not only does it sand easier, it builds about twice as much (4 mils per coat typical). I would estimate the SPI epoxy builds about 1/2 that. So if you want to block a really straight black, this primer doesnt come close to filling. D822 will EASILY fills 36 grit sand marks. Not that I do that, but it will.

But the down side is D822 is about $280.00 a gallon with reducer versus about $180 a gallon on the SPI. For me, the extra $100.00 is worth it....

Still awaiting my TAMCO equivelant of PPG D822.

Anyone that says SPI competes with D822 hasnt tried D822. PERIOD.

Phil..Epoxy primer isn't supposed to fill.. It's supposed isolate/ seal/ corrosion protection..In other words it's your base over BARE metal.. All your filling should be done with polyester putty etc. ON TOP OF THE EPOXY...THEN 2k primers for blocking wet sanding..All the 2 k primers are porous & absorb moisture where epoxy once cured will not absorb moisture..It's not a great Idea to use 2k or regular primer over bare metal..If you have ever noticed a car or part that gets primed with 2k over bare metal then sits for any length of time out side you will start to see surface rust through the primer..I will take the spi off your hands if you like.. Reading the D822 spec sheet it appears as if it's NOT a epoxy primer & just a regular 2k corrosion sealer primer..Big difference..

Make sure you follow the INSTRUCTIONS & PROCEDURES EXACTLY !! Also if you have used any products containing any type of acid for cleaning etc. or any type of self etch primer you must remove it neutralize if you don't the the epoxy will delaminate

Hi Scott Again,

Thank you for your reply and spec information on epoxies. I see what you mean about the properties and advantages of using epoxies over conventinal 2K primers and putties as you describe. On that basis, i must agree with you, and i find no arguement against you.

However, the only honest feedback i could give you is that in my experience in the trade, i've never had any rust appearing and eventually coming through issues, when iv'e painted 2k Primer/Putties over properly prepaired clean mild steel, and then followed through with quality color/base/clear coats. And also, i don't have shrinkage or sinkback issues with the 2K systems, providing you give your paint the right bake temp and bake & cure times.

On that basis i end up getting the results i want. I will say though, that i've used some clearcoats, that for some reason, don't want to cure properly no matter what you do. For me. that has been a problem sometimes. I'm currently using PPG where i work, and find it a reasonable quality paint.

Going your way, and using epoxies, would definately be the 'Rolls Royce',best quality way to go, i guess, but as i said, going 2K does it for me.

To each his own i guess. Thanks again for your feedback,and may your clear coat not get runs.

Greg.

 

[philt]

All Im saying Scott is TRY PPG D822. You will NEVER go back to Epoxy and then covering over with 2K. Its more money, more time and doesnt look as good over the long run. D822 ELIMINATES the need for a 2K primer....

Its a true EPOXY, sands better than 2K, It fills better 2K, it doesnt shrink at all after 48 hours.... Why do I need 2K???

I tried your paint, now try mine. Once you do... You will NEVER use 2K primer again. PERIOD.

Unless you are a sales person for SPI, I'm not sure why you are so hesitant to try something else....

The more you know, the more questions need to be answered.

BTW, you dont need to wet sand it either.... 2 wet coats , dry block with 80, 2 more coats dry block with 220 and then when you are ready to paint, add reducer (making it a sealer) and DA with 320. Again ALL dry. Super easy, super fast...

Enough on the subject, you can lead a horse to water.. you know the rest.

If you are unwilling to try it, your loss..

 

[Qcode351mach]

Hi Scott Again,

Thank you for your reply and spec information on epoxies. I see what you mean about the properties and advantages of using epoxies over conventinal 2K primers and putties as you describe. On that basis, i must agree with you, and i find no arguement against you.

However, the only honest feedback i could give you is that in my experience in the trade, i've never had any rust appearing and eventually coming through issues, when iv'e painted 2k Primer/Putties over properly prepaired clean mild steel, and then followed through with quality color/base/clear coats. And also, i don't have shrinkage or sinkback issues with the 2K systems, providing you give your paint the right bake temp and bake & cure times.

On that basis i end up getting the results i want. I will say though, that i've used some clearcoats, that for some reason, don't want to cure properly no matter what you do. For me. that has been a problem sometimes. I'm currently using PPG where i work, and find it a reasonable quality paint.

Going your way, and using epoxies, would definately be the 'Rolls Royce',best quality way to go, i guess, but as i said, going 2K does it for me.

To each his own i guess. Thanks again for your feedback,and may your clear coat not get runs.

Greg.

Greg,

I would have to agree with you on the 2k in a shop production environment..it's the standard procedure for that type of work..usually the cars don't sit around too long & the fact of using a down draft baking booth changes the whole equation especially baking the primer (I always did in my shop it's the way to go)..BUT in a restoration environment no baking booth situation the conditions are different. The cars usually sit for long periods of time even years before being top coated..I would feel 110% confident taking a car that was fully primed in epoxy & leaving it in the rain outside long term with no fear of rust appearing..do the same with 2k & watch what happens.

All Im saying Scott is TRY PPG D822. You will NEVER go back to Epoxy and then covering over with 2K. Its more money, more time and doesnt look as good over the long run. D822 ELIMINATES the need for a 2K primer....

Its a true EPOXY, sands better than 2K, It fills better 2K, it doesnt shrink at all after 48 hours.... Why do I need 2K???

I tried your paint, now try mine. Once you do... You will NEVER use 2K primer again. PERIOD.

Unless you are a sales person for SPI, I'm not sure why you are so hesitant to try something else....

The more you know, the more questions need to be answered.

BTW, you dont need to wet sand it either.... 2 wet coats , dry block with 80, 2 more coats dry block with 220 and then when you are ready to paint, add reducer (making it a sealer) and DA with 320. Again ALL dry. Super easy, super fast...

Enough on the subject, you can lead a horse to water.. you know the rest.

If you are unwilling to try it, your loss..

Phil,

First let me say I'm in no way related to spi or a salesperson for them..There are many ways to get the job done Some take the a train some take the b train to get to the same destination..I'm always open to new better ways to do things..My friends large restoration shop is a ppg shop..I'm going to get him to contact his ppg rep & set up a meet with him..& get the low down direct from the horses mouth on D822..Keep you posted..

 

[mus72]

Epoxy primer isn't used much in Ireland either but I wanted to use it because it isn't porus like 2k but while nobody was knocking it I was told it didn't suit being sprayed in a cool enviroment ie under 20c and this temp would need to be sustained for nearly an hour other wise I could get micro blistering showing later . I wouldn't mind hearing you're view on this.

 

[DamageLn]

This entire post has been very informative for me, so thank you to all involved! I am at the point where I am ready to blast the majority of my car and parts and am looking into what epoxy I wanted to use. I can get DP40 readily local so this is one option as well.

Have you guys had any experience with DP40? I work in a production shop and have little to no experience using epoxy. ( Let alone I mainly do structural repairs and the like )

 

[Qcode351mach]

Epoxy primer isn't used much in Ireland either but I wanted to use it because it isn't porus like 2k but while nobody was knocking it I was told it didn't suit being sprayed in a cool enviroment ie under 20c and this temp would need to be sustained for nearly an hour other wise I could get micro blistering showing later . I wouldn't mind hearing you're view on this.

You are correct for spi there is a minimum METAL temperature for spraying..& that temperature MUST be maintained for more than an hour..When I did my front clip I kept the shop at 70 for 6 hours after application & never let it get below 65 for a full 24 hours..Best to check with spi & ask them about temperature & how long that temp must be maintained AFTER application..

 

[marks73]

So which primer would work better in a strait garage enviornment where you can't gaurentee metal temp staying 60 overnight?