Is ram-air safe without twist-locks?

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Duncan Mach72

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My Car
1972 Mach1
351C 4V, 4 speed
Alum flywheel
McLeod clutch
Torque biasing diff, 3.5:1
31 spline Strange SS axles
Dual 2.5" exhaust
I was thinking about how all ram-air cars have twist-locks & I was wondering if the reason Ford designed this is to make sure the hood does not pop open while driving?

It seems to me that if the engine twists or vibrates it could apply some force to the underside of the hood via the air cleaner & plenum, plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc

 
If those twist-locks were designed for safety primarily, then Ford gets an "F" grade. They are not too secure and offer absolutely no secondary latching function should the primary fail. Mine used to vibrate and pop open on occasion while driving. An adjustment fixed that.

They are really just for appearance. But they sure do look cool!

What other manufacturers have put cool, factory-designed hood pins on thier muscle cars? ( my Hurst/Olds had some...lame compared to Fords)

 
Thanks guys, that makes me feel happier.

 
I don't see why the ram-air hoods would be any less safe than non ram-air hoods without twist locks. The twist locks do insure that your hood is fully closed, other wise you can't lock them down, plus they look cool.

I once had one of my twist locks get out of adjustment and I couldn't get it unlatched, I have to tell you it had a lot of holding power, I couldn't get the hood open until I figured out a way to get it unlatched...so they do add "some" additional prevention of your hood flying open.

Jim

 
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plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc
Should be just fine...Really ram air does not put much "if any" air pressure in there....Our ram air ports are not close enough "Nor high enough" to the front of the car to get a real ram air action...It is more like a cold air induction..So no real air pressure gets in there in the first place...Now if our ram air vents where right on the nose..Or raised up much higher....then it would get some forced air...Our inductions are little tad better than a cowl induction.

Atleast that is how my cousin the Engineer decribed my ram air ports when i was talking about them..lol

 
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plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc
Should be just fine...Really ram air does not put much "if any" air pressure in there....Our ram air ports are not close enough "Nor high enough" to the front of the car to get a real ram air action...It is more like a cold air induction..So no real air pressure gets in there in the first place...Now if our ram air vents where right on the nose..Or raised up much higher....then it would get some forced air...Our inductions are little tad better than a cowl induction.

Atleast that is how my cousin the Engineer decribed my ram air ports when i was talking about them..lol
Well I disagree with your cousin the Engineer - tell him to stick his head out the window while driving.

He can experiment with his mouth open and closed to simulate the flappers :D:D:D

 
plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc
...Really ram air does not put much "if any" air pressure in there....Our ram air ports are not close enough "Nor high enough" to the front of the car to get a real ram air action...It is more like a cold air induction..So no real air pressure gets in there in the first place...Now if our ram air vents where right on the nose..Or raised up much higher....then it would get some forced air...Our inductions are little tad better than a cowl induction.
Not correct, not even close.

NACA (National Advisory Committe on Aeronautics) deigned the shape of these surface-scoops for high-speed aircraft to increase air-flow into the scoop without inducing the excess drag that a typical scoop protruding from the surface would.

Chrysler conducted air-flow tests in the sixties and determined that the layer of stagnant low-pressure "lamainar" air basically surrounded and sealed-up the exterior surface of a moving vehicle. This lamainar air flow nearly prevents all air from entering any typical air scoop on the surface of a car.

Turbulent, high-pressure air is what you want, and that is found in basically four locations on a moving automobile: Under the front bumper, at the very leading edge of a fairly upright grille area, the base of the windshield and at the very tail end (trailing edge) of a short, high (truncated) trunk lid/tail end. This short and high design was the result of discoveries by the legendary Wunibald Kamm, an aerodynamicist/ auto designer, and is called a "Kammback" design. The GT-40s used this design effectively, and our 71-73 Mach 1s were designed to display this exact feature.

Scoops under the bumper are very effective (as in the earliest 442s), but also ingest road debris and water, making them none too desirable overall.

Leading edge of the hood scoops are effective, and several cars feature these: later 442s, 68 Shelbys (somewhat), etc...

Base of the windshield is an excellent area to grab some turbulent air, and the reverse facing cowl induction is effective, but only at higher speeds.

Chrysler's research led them to the hideous (but charming in its own way) snorkel or "mailbox" scoops seen on a few cars in the 60s/70s. These scoops did indeed get up above the "laminar" air flow, but increased dag sustantially. The snorkel protruding forwward once above the laminar layer is what prevented the laminar layer from simply enveloping the entire scoop. Crude but effective.

The NACA scoop is a wonder of air-flow management. The surface layer entry area of the scoop slowly ramps down into the scoop, and since nothing protrudes above the surface, there is no excess drag induced. The high-pressure, turbulent air above tpushes down on the lower low-pressure laminar layer, effectively sealing it to the cars body. As the entry area of the scoop drops away the high-pressure air pushes the low pressure air into the beginning of the scoop. As the walls of the scoop get taller, the scoop itself gets deeper and it volumetric area increases dramatically. The "walls" of the scoop prevent this air from bleeding out the sides, and the high-pressure air above creates a "ceiling" of air that prevents the low -pressure air from escaping above.

The walls also widen as they deepen increasing the Bernoulli-effect (venturi) simultaneously. As the "trapped", which has increased in pressure above ambient due to the higher-pressure air above it pushing it into the leading edge of the scoop air moves towards the rear larger, lower-pressure area of the scoop, the air molecules will now rapidly spread apart from one another, becoming quite energetic and turbulent...and fast moving.

Air molecules will always flow from high pressure to low pressure areas and therefore have nowhere to go but into the scoop, and at a much greater velocity than simple atmospheric pressure (14.7/1) would be able to introduce it. Thus the "ram air" effect.

When Ford put the scoops on the Mustang, it fudged a bit and simply renamed the scoops "NASA scoops", since everything "Space Race" at the time was so popular, and also because there was no NACA any more. NACA's name ws changed to NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration) in 1958 due to the increasing demands of space technology at the time.

These NACA scoops are used everywhere today, and on many vehicles...especially on the underside on belly-pans and skid plates.

They simply work amazingly well.

Now, after all that, I will say this:

There is no record or any documentation from Ford that I have ever seen that states that Ford did any actual real wind-tunnel testing on our Mach 1s during its development. The only wind-tunnel avaialable at the time was an aircraft company's (Lockheed, I think) and was very expensive to rent and could not be used fopr long periods of time. Chrysler used this tunnel and stopped after the costs became so exorbitant.

I strongly suspect that Ford simpy incorporated the design cues of aredynamics into thier styling without actually verifying thier real functionality.

The Kamm-back and the NACA scoops are two distinctive designs of our cars and both gave it a radically new and "leading edge technology" look when new.

Both of those features are in abundance on near every vehicle you see today, especially the Kamm tail. Nearly every passenger vehicle utilizes a relatively short trunK lid, with a relatively severe drop off.

 
Nope, but I grew up in Houston in 60s and was always immersed in the space-stuff. One reason I started my company in Cocoa Beach was to be close the the orbiter stuff.

 
plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc
...Really ram air does not put much "if any" air pressure in there....Our ram air ports are not close enough "Nor high enough" to the front of the car to get a real ram air action...It is more like a cold air induction..So no real air pressure gets in there in the first place...Now if our ram air vents where right on the nose..Or raised up much higher....then it would get some forced air...Our inductions are little tad better than a cowl induction.
Not correct, not even close.

NACA (National Advisory Committe on Aeronautics) deigned the shape of these surface-scoops for high-speed aircraft to increase air-flow into the scoop without inducing the excess drag that a typical scoop protruding from the surface would.

Chrysler conducted air-flow tests in the sixties and determined that the layer of stagnant low-pressure "lamainar" air basically surrounded and sealed-up the exterior surface of a moving vehicle. This lamainar air flow nearly prevents all air from entering any typical air scoop on the surface of a car.

Turbulent, high-pressure air is what you want, and that is found in basically four locations on a moving automobile: Under the front bumper, at the very leading edge of a fairly upright grille area, the base of the windshield and at the very tail end (trailing edge) of a short, high (truncated) trunk lid/tail end. This short and high design was the result of discoveries by the legendary Wunibald Kamm, an aerodynamicist/ auto designer, and is called a "Kammback" design. The GT-40s used this design effectively, and our 71-73 Mach 1s were designed to display this exact feature.

Scoops under the bumper are very effective (as in the earliest 442s), but also ingest road debris and water, making them none too desirable overall.

Leading edge of the hood scoops are effective, and several cars feature these: later 442s, 68 Shelbys (somewhat), etc...

Base of the windshield is an excellent area to grab some turbulent air, and the reverse facing cowl induction is effective, but only at higher speeds.

Chrysler's research led them to the hideous (but charming in its own way) snorkel or "mailbox" scoops seen on a few cars in the 60s/70s. These scoops did indeed get up above the "laminar" air flow, but increased dag sustantially. The snorkel protruding forwward once above the laminar layer is what prevented the laminar layer from simply enveloping the entire scoop. Crude but effective.

The NACA scoop is a wonder of air-flow management. The surface layer entry area of the scoop slowly ramps down into the scoop, and since nothing protrudes above the surface, there is no excess drag induced. The high-pressure, turbulent air above tpushes down on the lower low-pressure laminar layer, effectively sealing it to the cars body. As the entry area of the scoop drops away the high-pressure air pushes the low pressure air into the beginning of the scoop. As the walls of the scoop get taller, the scoop itself gets deeper and it volumetric area increases dramatically. The "walls" of the scoop prevent this air from bleeding out the sides, and the high-pressure air above creates a "ceiling" of air that prevents the low -pressure air from escaping above.

The walls also widen as they deepen increasing the Bernoulli-effect (venturi) simultaneously. As the "trapped", which has increased in pressure above ambient due to the higher-pressure air above it pushing it into the leading edge of the scoop air moves towards the rear larger, lower-pressure area of the scoop, the air molecules will now rapidly spread apart from one another, becoming quite energetic and turbulent...and fast moving.

Air molecules will always flow from high pressure to low pressure areas and therefore have nowhere to go but into the scoop, and at a much greater velocity than simple atmospheric pressure (14.7/1) would be able to introduce it. Thus the "ram air" effect.

When Ford put the scoops on the Mustang, it fudged a bit and simply renamed the scoops "NASA scoops", since everything "Space Race" at the time was so popular, and also because there was no NACA any more. NACA's name ws changed to NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration) in 1958 due to the increasing demands of space technology at the time.

These NACA scoops are used everywhere today, and on many vehicles...especially on the underside on belly-pans and skid plates.

They simply work amazingly well.

Now, after all that, I will say this:

There is no record or any documentation from Ford that I have ever seen that states that Ford did any actual real wind-tunnel testing on our Mach 1s during its development. The only wind-tunnel avaialable at the time was an aircraft company's (Lockheed, I think) and was very expensive to rent and could not be used fopr long periods of time. Chrysler used this tunnel and stopped after the costs became so exorbitant.

I strongly suspect that Ford simpy incorporated the design cues of aredynamics into thier styling without actually verifying thier real functionality.

The Kamm-back and the NACA scoops are two distinctive designs of our cars and both gave it a radically new and "leading edge technology" look when new.

Both of those features are in abundance on near every vehicle you see today, especially the Kamm tail. Nearly every passenger vehicle utilizes a relatively short trunK lid, with a relatively severe drop off.
I am an engineer, but not well versed in advanced fluid dynamics, so I must honestly say I don't know about the theories behind the scoop design. Having said that, good engineers always rely on empirical testing to really solidify the theories. Soooooo. When I ran my car with hood scoops open in high school.(no block plates) and no twist locks. After running up and down the highway for a while the primary hood latch ended up tearing loose from the lower end of the core support. I noticed this at speed on the highway when my hood began lifting slightly. I never ran open scoops without twist locks after that. Case #2. I had a friend in auto shop with a beautiful Mach 1. He ran open scoops with no twist locks. One night while out on a date his hood latch failed on the highway, the hood flew open and got slammed into the windshield on top of the cowl. It was a mess.

Based on these two samples I have applied my engineering factor of safety and determined that it is unsafe to run the Mach 1 NACA hood with open scoops and no secondary latch system. BSME U of Mo -Rolla, MBA Rockhurst University. 20+ years of corporate engineering experience.:cool:

 
Well, that may be true, but without any hard proof or engineering or design evidence, I must confess that I just don't agree.

With the scoops open into the underhood area ( without an underhood ram-air plenum in place), and with the entire rear underside area of the hood open to through-flow air as it is on a stock set-up, I cannot see how any significant amount of air pressure could build under the hood enough to overpower the stock primary latch mechanism. Any incoming air into the engine compartment would surely never be able to build pressure beyond the ability for the entire open rear area to bleed it off.

I have driven many 71-73 Mustangs over the years with open scoops on a non-functional hood and have never had any hint that the primary latch was stressed beyond its ability.

But, it is all supposition on my part, so maybe the hood latches were always packaged with the ram-air as an extra margin of safety.

 
plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc
...Now, after all that, I will say this:
There is no record or any documentation from Ford that I have ever seen that states that Ford did any actual real wind-tunnel testing on our Mach 1s during its development. The only wind-tunnel avaialable at the time was an aircraft company's (Lockheed, I think) and was very expensive to rent and could not be used fopr long periods of time. Chrysler used this tunnel and stopped after the costs became so exorbitant.

I strongly suspect that Ford simpy incorporated the design cues of aredynamics into thier styling without actually verifying thier real functionality.

The Kamm-back and the NACA scoops are two distinctive designs of our cars and both gave it a radically new and "leading edge technology" look when new.
That was his point...The design of the port is correct but he just simply stated it was in the wrong spot ....The older mustang with the ram air up front "right at the front" or up higher will ram air.....There is a dead air spot right where our year of scoops are...I was told "If people believe or not" It is a cold air induction..Not a true ram air.



plus maybe you get some lift on the hood due to the air going in there?

Dunc
Should be just fine...Really ram air does not put much "if any" air pressure in there....Our ram air ports are not close enough "Nor high enough" to the front of the car to get a real ram air action...It is more like a cold air induction..So no real air pressure gets in there in the first place...Now if our ram air vents where right on the nose..Or raised up much higher....then it would get some forced air...Our inductions are little tad better than a cowl induction.

Atleast that is how my cousin the Engineer decribed my ram air ports when i was talking about them..lol
Well I disagree with your cousin the Engineer - tell him to stick his head out the window while driving.

He can experiment with his mouth open and closed to simulate the flappers :D:D:D
Wow..really Don? All joking aside... I use to think just like you did "that plenty of air got in there" but that mite not be the case.



I am an engineer, but not well versed in advanced fluid dynamics, so I must honestly say I don't know about the theories behind the scoop design. Having said that, good engineers always rely on empirical testing to really solidify the theories. Soooooo. When I ran my car with hood scoops open in high school.(no block plates) and no twist locks. After running up and down the highway for a while the primary hood latch ended up tearing loose from the lower end of the core support. I noticed this at speed on the highway when my hood began lifting slightly. I never ran open scoops without twist locks after that. Case #2. I had a friend in auto shop with a beautiful Mach 1. He ran open scoops with no twist locks. One night while out on a date his hood latch failed on the highway, the hood flew open and got slammed into the windshield on top of the cowl. It was a mess.

Based on these two samples I have applied my engineering factor of safety and determined that it is unsafe to run the Mach 1 NACA hood with open scoops and no secondary latch system. BSME U of Mo -Rolla, MBA Rockhurst University. 20+ years of corporate engineering experience.:cool:
I have had alot of freinds with stories of hoods blowing open or breaking latches on cars and trucks that have no ram air at all.....wind will go under hoods and do all sorts of things...cause air is piled up right at the grill...My cousin "who i know and loves everything about jets and air planes" knows alot more about fluid dynamics than i do, told me once, "that they was not close enough to the front of the car to get real true ram air pressure"..He said there was a dead spot right there.."Or low pressure area?" at speed.. and they need to be higher or closer to the front..The design of the port it self is correct..But its in the wrong spot....At a time not everyone had a wind tunnel .....Sorry if it mite ruffle a few feathers just saying that ram air on our cars is more like cold air induction.

My mach one has open ram air hood..I never had the blocking plates..and has never flew open in the 20 + years i have owned it..Nor has it caused any stress to the car at all or the latch...and i have maxed the speedo out all the time when i was a kiddy at over 120+

BTW...Not tring to start a fight..Just tring to pass along some information that i found out.
 
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Don's comment, while a bit inflammatory, is correct in the general sense. But you're dealing with a large opening, and an object far from the surface of the car. So it's not really valid in this context. What Kit posted is much more informative, because in general from a fluid dynamics stand point I'd be inclined to "wonder" (not make any real statements because that's complex geometry and fluid dynamics is tricky business) if they really did anything.

Kit, would it be possible for you to post where you found this information? I'd be really curious to read more about it.

In terms of the lack of hood pins and open ducts being dangerous? Well in theory that ducts would allow air to easily flow under the hood and out along the windshield, in theory, this could create some lift, because of the slightly shorter path. But I can't imagine it would be all that much, and certainly not enough to overpower the hood latch. In the example sighted above (the second not the first) I'd be more inclined to say he didn't quite latch the hood. As for "tearing" the latch from the lower support, there's no way these little openings are creating that much additional force, that sounds more like bad metal, or a piece of junk fastener.

But this is all speculation, I've only been an engineer for 3 years, and fluid dynamics in terms of flow over complex surfaces is not my forte. An Aeronautical Engineer might have better insights.

 
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Even the non-Ram Air hoods with block-off plates are going to somewhat be subjected to the issue of "hood flying open," as the block-off plates are recessed into the NACA scoops somewhat - which would create pressure zones as the air entered the duct, cavitated, and was forced back out.

At speed, the air entering through the ducts, into the plenum, and eventually making its way to the air cleaner, should simply be sucked into the engine through the filter. However, engine air intake rate and filter permiability could potentially offer resistance, which would eventually create an over-pressure condition... much like having block-off plates located much further in the depths of the system.

Personally, I'm not too keen on simply having the hood latch by itself... but for security purposes. I wish Ford would've had the 'Better Idea' of the hood lock cable. I recently read an article on how to modify our cars to accept a hood lock cable system from a mid-80s to 90s F-150.

As much as I like the hood locks, I don't think they're really there for much more than ornamentation... but there's no denying that they are functional - so the added benefit of keeping the hood secure as a second latching mechanism is certainly there. Without any solid evidence that Ford intentionally added the hood locks for the purpose of keeping the functional Ram Air hood from flying open, I'm not completely convinced it was an engineering necessity.

 
Don's comment, while a bit inflammatory, is correct in the general sense. But you're dealing with a large opening, and an object far from the surface of the car. So it's not really valid in this context. What Kit posted is much more informative, because in general from a fluid dynamics stand point I'd be inclined to "wonder" (not make any real statements because that's complex geometry and fluid dynamics is tricky business) if they really did anything.

Kit, would it be possible for you to post where you found this information? I'd be really curious to read more about it.

In terms of the lack of hood pins and open ducts being dangerous? Well in theory that ducts would allow air to easily flow under the hood and out along the windshield, in theory, this could create some lift, because of the slightly shorter path. But I can't imagine it would be all that much, and certainly not enough to overpower the hood latch. In the example sighted above (the second not the first) I'd be more inclined to say he didn't quite latch the hood. As for "tearing" the latch from the lower support, there's no way these little openings are creating that much additional force, that sounds more like bad metal, or a piece of junk fastener.

But this is all speculation, I've only been an engineer for 3 years, and fluid dynamics in terms of flow over complex surfaces is not my forte. An Aeronautical Engineer might have better insights.
{Thumbs up} You know more than i do...I'm just qouting from what i was told, by some one i trust.

 
The entire reason a NACA duct exists is to function well in the "dead spots" you mentioned. Most of the surface of the car is a "dead spot" due to the low-pressure, slow-moving laminar air layer. The areas of turbulent air are where previously mentioned: under the front bumper, the leading edge of the hood, the base of the windshield and the trailing edge of the trunk lid/ tail end of the car.

Since it is not always convenient to locate an sir scoop in one of these locations, a scoop that functions well in a low-pressure laminar area, a "dead zone" was utilized. The beauty of the "submerged inlet scoop" ( the original name of the NACA duct invented in the 1940s) was that it contributed near zero extra air friction (drag) to the moving vehicle.

Note that NACA ducts do not work sufficiently to provide enough feed air to a jet engine, and as such these scoops are not used for jet-engine primary air intakes.

Under cruise situations, the vacuum-operated flaps in our ram-air scoops are closed...much the same as the "block off plates". The hood pins on my car have been non-functional for over 100,000 miles ( pure decoration, long embarrasing story) and I have never had an issue with the hood popping open unexpectadly

Also, in all these stories of the latch failing, what happened to the secondary safety catch? Those are seperate systems from the hood latch. That should have held the hood closed...

 
If a hood is going to fly open from air pressure, it would seem to me there is much more pressure at the grille opening than from the scoops. That is just my simple uneducated gearhead mind at work though. :D

I have the scoops open no hood locks and well over 10k miles without an issue. It cruises at 75-80 mph with no problem.

 
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