Major structural/rust issues - advice sought

[reconrover]

Howdy all. Quick story. Purchased 71 Mustang faux Mach 1 (Sports roof, 6cyl vin), off of Ebay several years ago. Lots of new parts, decent price, needed a paint job and one smaller dent repaired. Fast forward to now, and the hotrod shop suggest that it get stripped, and media blasted to know the full story underneath. Well.....it's completely shot underneath almost everything doors forward. It's been brazed together, filled with Styrofoam, bondo'd over, and is actually scary to look at.

So, here is the deal on advice. I've attached pics for your review. I cannot possibly afford the $20k+ estimate for metal repair and paint. Most of the parts to include the engine and trans are all new, TCC kit, exhaust, rear end, brakes, etc, etc. What are my options? Is there such a thing as a "rust free" shell for sale? Anyone sell repair parts for this car? Let me know....part it out, or keep it and search. I have no repair skills, so it'll all be shop work.

(Yep, that's STYROFOAM!!!!!!!!!!! ARGHHHHH)!!!!!!

The car was a "10 footer", still had good comments...until the fenders came off, and the whole thing was soda blasted. Holy crap am I pissed!!!!!!!!!!! Tons of new mechanical parts, but the shell....wow....

 

[73vertproject]

Looks pretty grim from here. I'm thinking part it out.

 

[marks73]

Buy a solid shell and transfer your investment into it. That's what I'm doing. Found a shell for $800 and made the needed repairs to it as I went. Been working out pretty well so far but I do all my own work.

 

[matrixx]

I have to agree with everyone above. Still seems better than what mister 4x4 started with but since you mention you don't have the skills to go that deep I would pull the driveline, interior, etc. Store it and find a shell. Fortunately the majority of these cars aren't as bad off as the 60's models seem to be so finding a pretty solid roller isn't hard. Our years aren't highly sought after either so that kind of keeps the prices down on the fixer uppers. In my area there are few on the classifieds for around 500 and up non running but seem to be complete.

if you are looking for "rust free" look around the Midwest and southern states far away from big bodies of water.

the cost to have a shop repair that shell would be expensive and who knows if they wouldn't do the same thing all over again.

 

[Steven Harris]

Agreed - especially since you are in New Mexico. You have plenty of raw material to work with out here that will need absolutely no rust repair. A "simple" unbolt and bolt proceedure to have a perfect car.

 

[72HCODE]

I'd want more pictures but first off 20k means they are raking you over the coals.

First the fender and doors you can bolt on replace with better ones so those are not a big issue.

Issue one , did they seriously sand blast the top side of the fenders and body?

Because it looks like they utterly ruined the car. You cannot use silica oxide to sand blast the body it will cause massive pits like I see in the fender sheet metal and it warps the sheet metal.

You are suppose to use plastic bead or walnut for paint stripping and even then it is dangerous due to warpage.

You a suppose to use a sander to strip the finished side surface. With the pitting they caused on the fender, your looking at layers of high build primer plus a ton of bondo and hundreds of hours of sanding to get that metal to look straight again.

Just from the few pictures you show I would instantly be pissed off with the shop doing the work.

Second. The aprons in the pictures are not structural and can be easily replaced with new sheet metal that is reproduction. The only issue is the top aprons that connect the cowl to the engine bay aprons they don't make that and they have to be fabricated or from a donor car.

I see other issues but first I want inspection of the front frame rails underneath the shock towers. If the tops of the rails are gone or filled with foam or somehow covered up, I would stand back and not put another dime into the car part it and start with a better shell.

If the rails are ok then I would consider repair. Front end from window to front bumper is about 8-12k mostly it is labor the sheet metal is maybe 3000$

However that rust indicates much more hiding underneath. The torque boxes and cowl I'm betting will be rusted bad as well, and so on which might be where 20k is coming from. If the damage was just aprons it would be 6-8k.

I had/have the same issues with my car,,, where do you stop as far Repairs.

I could easily put another 50k into my car getting it to like new condition or spend 11k on one that was done and in very good shape.

If the car is family and was my fathers that is one thing if the car is just for fun, I would say cut your losses.

Here is what I went through on my car. The costs are a little fuzzy but I stopped at 12k for 6 months worth of work on the front end. That was in addition to another 10k in engine and suspension at the same time.

My front end was basically gone. Knowing what I know now I would of junked the car.

http://m1031.photobucket.com/albums/72hcode/towers%20and%20rails/

I required, sectioned front frame rails. New shock towers and engine cradle from donor.

New rad support, 6 aprons repop. Cowl required fabrication(repo parts are now available) donor aprons for cowl engine bay connection. Strut rod cross member was salvaged and patched.

The donor parts required rust repair as well. It was like peeling a rotten onion and the core was bad too.

I should pointout the repairs to the front end could of kept going I made a comprises with my metal fabricator to stop at a certain point because the cost was just skyrocketing and even he was getting sick from it.

 

[don29163]

He would be better off to part it out and buy a completed car. He says he has no repair skills, which means a project like this is not acceptable. 20 K will buy a pretty nice car, that he can actually drive.

Heck, I will sell him my 72 Q code 4 speed for 13K and he can drive it home!

 

[reconrover]

I'd want more pictures but first off 20k means they are raking you over the coals.

First the fender and doors you can bolt on replace with better ones so those are not a big issue.

Issue one , did they seriously sand blast the top side of the fenders and body?

Because it looks like they utterly ruined the car. You cannot use silica oxide to sand blast the body it will cause massive pits like I see in the fender sheet metal and it warps the sheet metal.

You are suppose to use plastic bead or walnut for paint stripping and even then it is dangerous due to warpage.

Howdy. The media used to strip it was soda (at least that's what I was told, can't be there as I'm away in the desert). In speaking with the shop guy, even he's telling me to part it out. The positive side is that all mechanical parts are new to slightly used, and everything is in good shape. So I should recover a decent bit of cash to fund another project. I looked at several used/updated/restomods. Prices for something done head to toe is $20-$30, and that is new upgrades motors, suspension, paint, etc, etc. Wish I wouldn't have already dropped $4500 into the project so far....but alas. I guess it'll be me and my air compressor when I get home, and some time on e-bay and this site posting items for sale.

You a suppose to use a sander to strip the finished side surface. With the pitting they caused on the fender, your looking at layers of high build primer plus a ton of bondo and hundreds of hours of sanding to get that metal to look straight again.

Just from the few pictures you show I would instantly be pissed off with the shop doing the work.

Second. The aprons in the pictures are not structural and can be easily replaced with new sheet metal that is reproduction. The only issue is the top aprons that connect the cowl to the engine bay aprons they don't make that and they have to be fabricated or from a donor car.

I see other issues but first I want inspection of the front frame rails underneath the shock towers. If the tops of the rails are gone or filled with foam or somehow covered up, I would stand back and not put another dime into the car part it and start with a better shell.

If the rails are ok then I would consider repair. Front end from window to front bumper is about 8-12k mostly it is labor the sheet metal is maybe 3000$

However that rust indicates much more hiding underneath. The torque boxes and cowl I'm betting will be rusted bad as well, and so on which might be where 20k is coming from. If the damage was just aprons it would be 6-8k.

I had/have the same issues with my car,,, where do you stop as far Repairs.

I could easily put another 50k into my car getting it to like new condition or spend 11k on one that was done and in very good shape.

If the car is family and was my fathers that is one thing if the car is just for fun, I would say cut your losses.

Here is what I went through on my car. The costs are a little fuzzy but I stopped at 12k for 6 months worth of work on the front end. That was in addition to another 10k in engine and suspension at the same time.

My front end was basically gone. Knowing what I know now I would of junked the car.

http://m1031.photobucket.com/albums/72hcode/towers%20and%20rails/

I required, sectioned front frame rails. New shock towers and engine cradle from donor.

New rad support, 6 aprons repop. Cowl required fabrication(repo parts are now available) donor aprons for cowl engine bay connection. Strut rod cross member was salvaged and patched.

The donor parts required rust repair as well. It was like peeling a rotten onion and the core was bad too.

I should pointout the repairs to the front end could of kept going I made a comprises with my metal fabricator to stop at a certain point because the cost was just skyrocketing and even he was getting sick from it.

 

[dviskoe]

I'm in a similar boat myself, picked up a '73, but it was deep in the snow and I couldn't get under it.

see local thread here:

http://www.tcstangs.com/forum/showthread.php?125970-73-convert-i-ve-a-Lotta-work-to-do

I'm not afraid of doing a little welding, but structure I may need a little help with.

I was wondering about the interchangeability of our years, as in, would this work :

http://www.cjponyparts.com/full-shock-tower-assembly-passenger-side-1967-1968/p/M3631R/

 

[Boss1Ray]

dviskoe,

I would be concerned as to the structural integrity of the whole (convertible) car. -And that all ties to safety.

As for interchangability of sheetmetal or structural parts, Id check with Don at Ohio Mustang Supply (OMS).

He'd know what will or won't work and know how to modify similar parts (floors) to fit.

Ray

 

[Mister 4x4]

I have to agree with everyone above. Still seems better than what mister 4x4 started with...

LMAO!! I'm not quite sure how to take that.

I guess it all boils down to how bad you want THAT particular car. If you just want a '71-'73 "Mach 1-shaped car," then yeah, I'd say find another car and start over - especially if you don't have the skills to replace the front clip, remove the bad stuff while preserving the good stuff, fit and weld reproduction sheet metal, or have the facilities and/or tools needed to do such things.

I hope I'm not sounding like a snob, either. I honestly did not have all of the necessary skills when I first started, but I had very good basic skills and the facilities and tools at my disposal - plus, the time and willingness to learn what I needed to do. I am pretty much 'over the hump' at this point, but I wouldn't recommend someone taking on such a project unless they have the skills, time, money, tools, and facilities to do so. Realistically, I should've 'passed' or parted out my car and found a better starting point, but so many told me it couldn't be done I just had to make it happen.

One thing for sure though: I could not have done everything I've done without the advice, encouragement, and camaraderie of the guys at this site. You're in the right place for the best advice on how to do whatever you decide to do. ::thumb::

 

[72HCODE]

i just wanted to come back and add.. i didn't want to sound all negative because i went through this and i still am really.

i look at it like this. 20K would buy you another car that is done and in very good shape if you do your homework and wait.

here is when you get driven up a wall. Lets go for a restore... so you start droping payments. if the place is really good it might take you 6 months to a year or more to complete a car with bad rust issues,

they will keep calling you about 40 hour work payments and what parts they need you to source. basically you will be driven insane slowly with all the excuses and they don't honor time specified deals and you have to go down there and keep on them about finishing your car already. yhea i went through this, and people in my family went through this. compared to others i had minor work done and it was basically a new front end and running gear, i did it myself and it took 3 years with the metal guy taking 6 months and the engine guy taking 9 months. then 1.5 years of problems. I got so sick i binned the car in the garage for another year and didn't touch it.

then you get sick because you look online and see cars in much better shape going for 8000-25000$ and wonder WTF your doing in the first place.

my perception has changed massively since i first started down my road. Unless the car is super rare or unless the car has some special meaning, part or sell it and move on. i swear it will drive you insane and you will be unhappy in the end.

recently a friend asked me what the plan was for my car, would i ever fully restore it. I started with a boat anchor and made it into a car. in the process i learned all about cars, how to fix and maintain everything on a 71-73 chassis. i built up my mechanical knowledge and skills, and that was the goal i set for myself after starting.

I also fell for the Ebay death trap. i bought what i thought was a decent car, not perfect, i asked all the right questions and had the seller lie to me over and over and doctor photos add to that my utter lack of knowledge at the time and i didn't know i was being scammed now i see all the red flags that told me to walk away from my car.

so what arrived at my house was a car from the bottom of a lake, complete with grass growing inside the car and a hornets nest were the dome light was suppose to be. i wanted to junk it day one. but i decided to set a different goal, it wasn't to own a nice car it was to learn about cars, and i got my lessons that would not trade for anything.

but when i was asked about the future of the car, i had to step back. I don't think i would sell it now since it is in good shape mechanically and it can't get worse since it is garage kept-ed and not a daily driver, also i does hold some personal value.

At the same time i cannot see me ripping apart the car for the 3rd time having to basically build a chassis again and having to address the comprises on the front end just to get the body solid and straight, when it will then need a paint job and additionally i hate the motor my engine builder made, so more money would now have to go back into the engine to make it 100% right.

so that means i have to send the car out to have it done soup to nuts, i added it up, i can see 50K easy getting sunk back into my car after spending at least that over 10 years, it wasn't all just for the car, when you start from zero you have to buy everything to work on the cars, and when you have to do everything yourself you can imagine the tool collection you end up with.

So i said i can't see selling it and i just want to drive it, i get thumbs up every time i take it out, but i can't see spending more crazy money on it either. I've reached my limit.

so i look at the OPs car and i go man the shop is going to roll him, it is an ebay car with coverup on damage, now the question is where do you stop?

well i see the door rust and the aprons rust and i just know that the frame rails are going to be soft on the front end.

If you know how to do the work yourself then it only costs you time because you will buy a donor and chop it up.

but when a shop does the work you get raped. aprons are easy the problem is what is underneath and how honest is the shop. lets say you go ahead,,, 2 weeks from now they call you, well the damage is bad we recommend a front clip swap to save money. this is true, however your looking at 6-10K for the shop charging you. now at home that would be half, most of the cost is finding the donor and transport.

so the front clip goes on, they call you again, need rockers, floors, drop downs, quarter patches, taillight panel, another 10K goes, your at 20K and the car has been there 6-9 months now.

then the car sits and sits, because they scheduled other jobs and your car isn't so important, the painter is busy,,,, etc.... 1 year goes by. now every screw up they made for the metal work comes back.

well they sand blasted the car, that means massive prep work that eats your budget the average professional paint job now is 12-25K the only time you get cheaper then 10K is when some home mechanic does the paint and he will be over his head with the high build primer and bondo trying to keep the body lines from rounding out. i went through this and priced it from bare metal to finished paint

so now at minimal your 12+12= 24K into the car, they still need to put it back together then all the 1000s pieces they call you about needed because they lost it, broke it or it is worn out.

30K the car comes back to you it might be 1-2 years later, all the little imperfections start to drive you insane because you just spent all this money and it is not perfect, it squeaks, funny noises when you drive it.

then one day you take it to the store and some asshat door dings it and we all read about the classic car guy that had a nuclear meltdown at the Lowe's parking lot in widgetville.

yeah trust me it happens that way. which is another reason my car is a 20 footer and when it gets dinged or scratched i just shrug and go,, well its still better then it used to be.

so i look back now 10 years and go well i can build a car from zero now, so if i get a nice one to start now, i can't get hosed by the mechanics again and i can keep it going in my life time and teach my children about cars, if i breaks i can fix it and move on.

now i know when to call it quits on my car and i still have projects i can do on it that i can learn from and tolerate.

So getting back to it... i would want to know the condition of those front frame rails and lower shock towers, because if they even told you,, oh the rails we can patch them, WALK AWAY.

the reason is to touch those frame rails means the shock towers are coming out along with the engine cradle at minimium. then they tell you oh its more then a patch and the cowl and firewall need a patch so a new front end is cheaper. now your grafting 2 cars together to make one. besides that there is the legality of the VIN # now.. the Vin is on the shock towers. you splice in the new front end and technically the car becomes the donor car's vin.

this is the grey area of car restoration it starts with cutting out vins and welding new ones in.

I look at things like this now. hey the car needs new quarters but the rails are solid, the front tray under the battery is bad, the rad support is solid, the floors are original but they need a front kick well patch and the rear kick well patch, the torque boxes are good and the inner rockers good, outside rockers need a small patch and maybe the truck floor or taillight panel needs a patch, the car is complete and drivable now and everything on it works and very minor change to original equipment, maybe motor rebuild .30 over, and a fresh trans and rear, and its a 4V car R,M,Q code i would go for it.

V2 car or 302 forget it.

then during resto i keep the same color good paint job that doesn't kill you because the body work was minor and the car is back on the road for 10-15K but again i could spend 15-20 and get one done.

So its the best advice i can offer get more information on condition and what they find then sit back and decide.

 

[Obsidian11]

Just my 2 cents here...My '71 coupe was my first car and as such I had/have a very sentimental connection to it. the reason I say had/have is because when it came time to restore it the right way the 2nd time around I quickly realized that by the time I replaced all the panels that needed to be replaced I'd pretty much have a different shell anyway. So, I luckily found a complete car that only needed a trunk floor for a good deal and started over with that shell. Sometimes it's just easier to cut your losses and be practical.

 

[dviskoe]

this:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/cto/3810381114.html

suddenly looks like a good idea, but it's on the other side of the country.

parents live close ish, perhaps I can impose on them.

I am nervous of doing framerails, but if I have to I will. It would be a good 'learning' experience ...

that way I can also recommend to other people not to do it

 

[jeff8877]

72HCode...

Great advice and write up...thanks for sharing!

Jeff

 

[OMS]

I'm in a similar boat myself, picked up a '73, but it was deep in the snow and I couldn't get under it.

see local thread here:

http://www.tcstangs.com/forum/showthread.php?125970-73-convert-i-ve-a-Lotta-work-to-do

I'm not afraid of doing a little welding, but structure I may need a little help with.

I was wondering about the interchangeability of our years, as in, would this work :

http://www.cjponyparts.com/full-shock-tower-assembly-passenger-side-1967-1968/p/M3631R/

No you cannot use 67 - 8 tower / frame assembly

Don

 

[dviskoe]

Don,

Thanks for the info,

do you have a similar product available for the 71-73 ?

I'm still trying to decide what to do ...

 

[OMS]

For the 71 -3's, frame rail / shock tower would be a used item

I do have a coupe with clean rails and towers I am going to part out.

Other problem would be in shipping used frame rail / towers to you

Don