Timing frustrations

[Big Red Mach 1]

They are forged pistons. I have a message into Eddie just to check and see if he might know anything. I'm actually hoping he does know the history. I'm almost guessing he might. Of the 16 rockers 15 were old and one was newer, but not "new". Now that rocker was all the way in the back on #8, but if he took them all off at any point, no reason to believe the old rocker that got destroyed wasn't on #1. You will see the newer style rocker on #8 below. 

 

[Big Red Mach 1]

Lowered the piston down. Allowed for a bit better zoom. Damage is smaller than it appeared at first. these aren't perfect, but better. And you can see better scale when taking the center of the piston into account. Maybe it is detonation. Eddie said he never dropped anything either.

 

[boilermaster]

Big red mach 1,

Sorry man, In the first few photos, that looked really huge, but in the last few , not so bad.

Looks like the old nut down the carb trick.

What are your plans ?

 

[Big Red Mach 1]

Big red mach 1,

Sorry man, In the first few photos, that looked really huge, but in the last few , not so bad.

Looks like the old nut down the carb trick.

What are your plans ?

Drink...Heavily.

The reality is that I'm going to need to try to roll with it for a while. My income is going to go to near zero soon, so I don't have much choice. A month ago I would have said it's piston swap time. Now with this virus killing my business, I can't put $25 more dollars into this car. 

Whatever this is it happened a while ago. I haven't driven this car 20 miles. so it's probably been like that for quite some time. As long as it's not creating a hot spot it should last for a while. 

With all of the other stuff I've found up top, I was already thinking rebuild in 2021. So assuming it lasts that long, and the economy recovers, I won't be off of my long term goals anyway. 

My thought is to pull the plug periodically and make sure it's not growing or showing any evidence of cracking. Even though every time I drive it, I'll remember it's there and it will bug the crap out of me.

 

[Stanglover]

That sucks man!!

Sorry to learn of this damage. I hope there's no other damage? Cylinder walls? Not to scare you any more than you are already, but take a look while you're in there. If nothing showing, drive it gently for the summer and enjoy it, maybe next winter pull the motor.

 

[Big Red Mach 1]

It's one helluva car in a ton of other aspects. It will all work out.

My intent the whole time was to cruise it, jump on it every now and again of course, but not race it. Go to car shows, hang out and have fun with it. All of that can still happen. All will be well in the end.

 

[jpaz]

Ya, what a drag. Feel bad for you, but hopefully you can get through this summer with it. At least you found this out so you can keep an eye on it. Good luck!

 

[tony-muscle]

That dent may work to improve the swirl capability of the chamber and increase power. :whistling:

 

[Big Red Mach 1]

That dent may work to improve the swirl capability of the chamber and increase power. :whistling:

Gotta be worth 20 extra ponies, right?  rofl

 

[Kilgon]

Sorry to see it. Do you remember how the plug look when you took it out? Off white with dark spots or any signs of the electrode melting. Definitely something I would keep an eye on until you get around fixing it. Most detonation will leave a more circular mark. Looks like something got in the cylinder. At this point I say stay focus on getting the timing issue resolved and the engine running good and put it on your to do list.

 

[73pony]

I agree with Kilgon here. That looks like an impact for sure. I am curious what the bottom side of the head or the valves look like.

 

[Stanglover]

Well, you're getting bombarded with thoughts and ideas as to what it is and where it came from.

So, I'll throw one or two more at you; 

1) does the mark correspond with the location of the spark plug?

2) if it does, perhaps someone decided to use a totally incorrect heat range plug, or maybe totally bad timing. BUT if that were the case, you'd see damage on other pistons I would think.

3) If it does not correspond, something hit it, but what? Can you see the top land area for a broken piece, i.e. broken top ring land?

4) what was the compression number for that cylinder and was it in range with the others? I think you earlier said they were all good.

If it was different, perhaps bad valve(s).

OK that was 4, I'm just throwing "mud at the wall", something may stick. It's a puzzle for sure.

 

[Big Red Mach 1]

All good points guys.

Plugs I removed after I bought the car looked good. Plugs I replaced them with looked good when pulled again. They probably don't have 20 miles on them though.

Compression test has not yet been done, but will be done this week.

A more complete inspection of each cylinder will be done to the best of my abilities with the scope. I will try to use the little mirror adapter to look up at the heads,valves and cylinder walls.

Spark plugs I believe were 42 heat range if I remember correctly.

 

[Stanglover]

For what it's worth, I run Autolite 25's spec'd for Boss 351 etc. The book calls for Autolite 24's for the M code @ 10.7:1 comp ratio (Ford's numbers) I find the 25's give mine a cleaner burn and i stage hotter than 24's. My engine is now around 10:1 with dished pistons. "Fancy" plugs are not suggested for these engines.

By the way, don't drop the little mirror!!!

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

I had not looked at this post for some reason. I am not an engine guy so I was letting the real mechanics give their info. 

A question. Will your scope let you look at the head to see if there is a matching mark on the head? That would tell you if something had gotten in the engine. 

Just something to look at. If someone has taken the butterflies out of the carb they might not have staked the screws enough. Have you checked to see if one missing. 

As far as a dropped valve no way that small mark is from a valve. Here is a pic of a dropped valve going into a piston.

My dad loaned his Granada to my sister it had maybe 120,000 one owner miles on it 302. It jumped time and instead of hauling home her husband twisted the distributor around to get it running and of course it bent a valve and after rocking back and forth a few times it broke. Lots blame the two piece Ford valves but any valve that gets hit by a piston will break after it rocks back and forth. Just liking bending a coat hanger to break it hardens the material and then breaks.

Even a forged piston would show way more damage from a valve.

I have seen a top ring break and a piece come into the chamber but that does not look right for a piece of ring. 

 

[tony-muscle]

Well, you're getting bombarded with thoughts and ideas as to what it is and where it came from.

So, I'll throw one or two more at you; 

1) does the mark correspond with the location of the spark plug?

2) if it does, perhaps someone decided to use a totally incorrect heat range plug, or maybe totally bad timing. BUT if that were the case, you'd see damage on other pistons I would think.

3) If it does not correspond, something hit it, but what? Can you see the top land area for a broken piece, i.e. broken top ring land?

4) what was the compression number for that cylinder and was it in range with the others? I think you earlier said they were all good.

If it was different, perhaps bad valve(s).

OK that was 4, I'm just throwing "mud at the wall", something may stick. It's a puzzle for sure.

If it corresponds with the plug hole, could it be someone cranking the engine by mistake while the a piston stop was installed?

 

[boilermaster]

1+  Tony -muscle,

You might be on to something there.

Notice that the light is always directly on the defect.

Why else #1 cylinder ?

Boilermaster

 

[Big Red Mach 1]

It is in fact aligned with the spark plug hole. Something very well could have been in that hole while the engine was turned over. A broken spark plug had also crossed my mind, but a piston stop does make more sense. Also would help explain why it's #1 and only #1.

If it was a piston stop and it only bent it, it may have not even damaged the head or valves. We will see.

Stanglover - The little mirror gizmo will definitely be taped to the scope. LOL : )

 

[Stanglover]

It is in fact aligned with the spark plug hole. Something very well could have been in that hole while the engine was turned over. A broken spark plug had also crossed my mind, but a piston stop does make more sense. Also would help explain why it's #1 and only #1.

If it was a piston stop and it only bent it, it may have not even damaged the head or valves. We will see.

Stanglover - The little mirror gizmo will definitely be taped to the scope. LOL : )

 Ha Ha! good move.

Perhaps that's why I only ever used a pencil to find TDC. Actually, I have not heard about a piston stop tool before, so maybe I'll save my money on that one.

 

[Don C]

The trick to using a piston stop tool is to remember that it's still in the spark plug hole before you crank the engine with the starter. Or, don't ask your body builder buddy to turn it by hand with a 3-foot long breaker bar.