351 Cleveland running hot at idle.

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Scubaman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
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Location
Florida
My Car
73 convertible
Had my ‘73 convertible in the shop. Oil pan seal replaced leaking, oil, spark plugs, filters, replaced all hoses, etc.
since then the 351 Cleveland runs hot at idle and cools down when running at higher rpms. I have read that the thermostat may be the issue and the shop may have switched it when they replaced the hoses,
My research has indicated that I may need a high flow Robert Shaw thermostat. Where can i find the proper thermostat? Does NAPA or NPD sell the correct thermostat? Or do i need to order from some other source?

Thanks Stan
 

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I just bought one from Summit Racing at summitracing .com. It's made by a company in California called FlowKooler. I checked with them to see which one I should get. If the restrictor plate, at the bottom of the thermostat cavity, is in good shape the you can use # 133 180. If it is missing or in bad shape FlowKooler has a thermostat with a replacement restrictor plate. Be aware however that the plate is matched to the thermostat. The are different in size to the originals You can choose between 160,180, or 195 combos of thermostat and plates. You may want to give FlowKooler a ring to be sure you get the correct one.
Good Luck
 
Motorad 223180 or 223192, the last three correlate to the opening temperature. Napa carries them under THM 197 and THM 297 respectively.

1675893073743.png

TrackBoss / Tim Meyer carries the Robertshaw thermostat in a variety of temp ranges. He has the 180° in stock, but is out of factory 195°.

https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/thermostat-bundle/
 
There is also a STANT brand for 351C's. I don't have the exact number at hand, but I have only used the STANT 195 over the last 14 years without any issues. This offers an alternative to the (possibly better) Robert Shaw type.
 
Scubaman,
One can also run the modified restrictor.
I got from WCCC, pn # 53234 @ $24.55. with it I can run a typical Windsor type thermostat that
EVERY parts store has in stock.
Boilermaster
 
watched the GEARS show and it had a 351C on it. and it did mention the two piece stat. if u look at your 3rd pic the upper left shows 2 pc. if the show replaced the stat maybe they didn't also use the resistor i think it's called.
 
Sounds like they replaced the thermostat with the wrong one, or the wrong temp. I had the same thing happen after having my engine rebuilt. They put a 180 in instead of a 195. I changed it and no more issues.
 
For any car, hot at idle but cooler with driving means not enough fan action/efficiency.
 
For any car, hot at idle but cooler with driving means not enough fan action/efficiency.
That too.
Although I only had hot running a couple of times when stuck in traffic on a very hot day (we do sometimes get those in SW Ontario), I switched the stock fan for an 18" clutch fan and that seems to make a big difference, but not been stuck in traffic since!!
 
Non AC cars can also benefit by adding an AC car water pump pulley, which is a smaller diameter and will drive the pump faster.
You will also need a shorter belt.
 
Motorad 223180 or 223192, the last three correlate to the opening temperature. Napa carries them under THM 197 and THM 297 respectively.

View attachment 73098

TrackBoss / Tim Meyer carries the Robertshaw thermostat in a variety of temp ranges. He has the 180° in stock, but is out of factory 195°.

https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/thermostat-bundle/
looking up the motorad stat i didn't see anything stating cleveland engine. only asked for engine size not C orW or M. boy this is my first cleveland but i'll take a 302 anyday.
 
There may be other factors causing the engine temp to increase when idling (for prolonged periods of time). If the temperature goes back down to a more normal (less hot) level when driving, but creeps up when driving at very slow speeds (as in stop and go congestion), or prolonged idling, you may well have an air flow problem over the radiator cooling fins. That can be caused by a few things, The first thing I would do is make sure none of the cooling tube fins are bent over, thus blocking off the ability of outside air to freely flow through the cooling fins. Also, look for debris blocking the cooling fins (leaves, dead insect carcasses, mud, etc.).

This is something I feel is well worth sharing... On our 73 Mach 1 someone replaced the original standard radiator used with its factory 302 engine with a much wider radiator meant for a larger engine (351/429?). But, they did not change the fan shroud. They just left the older shroud in place, which meant a lot of the cooler air was not being drawn through all of the radiator's cooling fins and tubes. That resulted in the engine coolant temp spiking at 225 - 240 degrees until I got the vehicle moving at 25MPH or faster, where the air outside of the too small fan shroud was able to flow through cooling fins/tube surfaces, and the temp would quickly drop to 195 degrees or so. I suspect the prior owner was unaware of the temp issue as he had the original instrument panel with idiot lights. We opted to install a Dakota VHX analog gauge instrument panel, so I was very well aware of the temperature fluctuations and excess heat at idle issue. No doubt he drove like that for years unaware of the jeopardy he was putting his engine into. Not that the engine can't handle 235 - 240 degrees, but why cause that much thermal stress needlessly? Things are better at 195 - 205 or so.

I am certain I could have resolved the excess temp at idle issue by getting a correctly fitting fan shroud. But, no, I just had to have some fun. I ended up installing a large three row aluminum radiator with a matching metal fan shroud and dual electric fans. I used a variable thermostat to trigger a fan relay to turn on when the coolant temp hit 200 degrees, and turn off when the coolant temp dropped under 200 degrees. It worked beautifully, although it was a fairly extreme "fix" for what was likely really needed had i wanted to just fix the real problem for much less $$$. But, for me any excuse to go to dual electric fans was fine - I have always wanted to do that with a high performance vehicle, just because... It worked out so well that I did the same thing for our 73 Mustang Convertible as well, despite the fact it has no cooling temp issues. Not that I do not feel it was a fine solution, but in your case simply making sure you have a good fan shroud that fits correctly, and checking the cooling fins and tubes for air blockage, may be enough to do the trick. The previously mentioned thermostat and restrictor plate suggestions are also important. And speaking of thermostats I (also) prefer to run with 192 - 195 degree thermostats.

If you are still having heating issues be sure your ignition timing is set to 6 degrees BTDC. Be careful though, the vibration dampeners where the timing marks are located, for cars as old as our 71-73 Mustangs are, will at times begin to slip, and you will find their timing marks to not be accurate. I have my own way (old school) of setting the optimum timing on those old engines, as opposed to going only by the timing marks. But, first you need to do a vacuum test to make certain the distributor vacuum advance diaphragm is not leaking or ruptured (that can cause excess temps also). And also test the vacuum line(s) feeding the vacuum advance diaphragm to make certain it is getting ported vacuum when the carburetor throttle blades are opened. As if that is not already enough to check with ignition timing, pop the distributor cap and make certain the mechanical timing advance springs are working, and see if you can feel them work by rotating the rotor left and right. You should feel the "springy" sensation s you rotate the rotor left and right. Not huge, just make sure the mechanism is working freely. If the mechanical vacuum advance system is sticking or binding it will also cause the engine to run hot.

But, wait! There's more! Oh, yippy skippy... On your thermostat cover you should have a Thermal Vacuum Switch (TVS, aka Ported Vacuum Switch) with three vacuum hose connections. It is designed to let ported vacuum from the carburetor flow to the vacuum advance diaphragm when the engine is running at a normal temperature. When the coolant temp gets "too hot" (I think 225 to 235 or so) the TVS will block off the ported vacuum switch and send intake manifold vacuum (to include when idling) to the vacuum advance diaphragm in an effort to help cool the engine down. You really need to test the TVS to make certain it is sending ported vacuum to the vacuum advance diaphragm when running at normal engine speed when off idle, as failing that you can run into problems. Also, make certain the vacuum hoses are installed correctly. I have attached a PDF file for 1973 that shows how your engine vacuum hose routing should look, for all engine and transmission configurations - beginning on PDF document page 18. The various calibrations for the various 351C engines (2v & 4v) and transmissions begins on PDF document page 66 for 351C engines in Mustangs. Be sure to select the correct calibration from the chart on page 18, unless the calibration number on the valve cover is different due to an engine change. Around page 64 or so the document page #s get fouled as I inserted the two 351C 4v calibrations from a different source.

As far as testing it to make certain the TVS begins to send intake manifold vacuum to the vacuum advance diaphragm, you could do that once your temp gets really high, but I personally prefer to not do a lot with the engine when it gets that hot. In fact, I try to not let thing get that hot if it is avoidable.

I know I threw a lot at you, and I am hoping the ignition timing and vacuum related suggestions are not needed because the cooling fins and fan shroud suggestions take care of the issues you have. But, if you are interested in seeing more info I have some YouTube videos that you may find useful re: the vacuum advance and TVS vacuum testing matters.

I have not done a video on my old school dynamic, performance oriented ignition timing process, and feel it is best for me to do that as a video as opposed to trying to describe it in written words.

The videos I have you may find useful are provided below.

TVS, Vacuum Advance, and vacuum system related videos:

https://youtu.be/0yRh_m7TvxE

https://youtu.be/DtBcK7Lxq1Q

https://youtu.be/sLwXlsHBd4k

https://youtu.be/ohw1oRlcC4c


Vacuum system related, but more the the auto transmission modulator and EGR valve. Still, it may have some worthwhile info for you:

https://youtu.be/6sTLsBJUgCI


Installing a dual electric fan cooling system (parts list is in the video description):

https://youtu.be/T5DrC2zrpIA


Installing an LED light array to show when electricity is sent to the electric cooling fans:

https://youtu.be/ErDOMJ1hOnA
 

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Thank you for these suggestions. The engine, radiator, water pump, are all stock 351 cleveland 4 barrel and in 18 years has never run hot. Only after taking the car to have 18 year old hoses replaced (just the thing to do) it started. I am going to start with replacing the coolant and a new thermostat. Hopefully that resolves the problem.
 
looking up the motorad stat i didn't see anything stating cleveland engine. only asked for engine size not C orW or M. boy this is my first cleveland but i'll take a 302 anyday.

The listings for our cars often have the incorrect part numbers listed. Using a late 70s Ford car with a 400 will usually get you the correct thermostat part #. Below is the link to a 78 T-bird w/400. The only incorrect parts are the three Motorcraft t-stats. The rest are correct Cleveland parts.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...cid+v8,1139969,cooling+system,thermostat,2200


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i pulled the stat today. what i found is the stat does NOT fit directly on top of the resistor plate. from intake surface to top of resistor is close to 1 1/8". the old stat was easily 1/4to 3/8 short. since this is my first Cleveland i just want to make sure... the stat DOES or DOES NOT sit directly on top of the resistor plate ??????? i have found no measurements listed with stat's.
 
Non AC cars can also benefit by adding an AC car water pump pulley, which is a smaller diameter and will drive the pump faster.
You will also need a shorter belt.
Ford engineers of the 351C's put in the flow restrictor plate to slow the flow so the radiator has more time to disapate more the heat? A smaller water pump pully would negate that I would think.
 
i pulled the stat today. what i found is the stat does NOT fit directly on top of the resistor plate. from intake surface to top of resistor is close to 1 1/8". the old stat was easily 1/4to 3/8 short. since this is my first Cleveland i just want to make sure... the stat DOES or DOES NOT sit directly on top of the resistor plate ??????? i have found no measurements listed with stat's.

The t-stat does not sit directly on the bypass plate. Throw the t-stat in a pot of boiling water and you'll see how far the "hat" extends.

The cooling system on a 351C is a "controlled bypass" system. When the engine is cold. the t-stat is closed and the bypass plate is open, allowing water to recirculate through the engine. Water passes through the bypass plate into the water pump, back into the block, rearward to the heads and then forward and into the crossover channel in the front of the block. As the thermostat opens, the "hat" on the wax motor moves downward, and begins to restrict the flow through the bypass plate, forcing the coolant out the upper hose into the radiator. When the t-stat is nearly completely open, the hat sits in the hole in the bypass plate and almost all water is forced through the radiator. The t-stat will then open and close until it reaches a state of equilibrium and a steady engine temperature.

If the wrong thermostat is used, it allows excessive amounts of water to bypass the radiator, which will cause the engine to overheat in a short time.

Windsor architecture engines also use a bypass system, but it is unregulated, and only restricted by the size of the outlet hole in the bypass nipple on the thermostat housing.
 
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