351c Build Ideas And Advice

[tony-muscle]

Joining this thread a bit late. Good choice on sourcing the 408 kit from Tim. His part selection for the 408 is top notch. Also, good choice with the 3V heads. I now run CHI's 4V and with my 408 I am pushing 470hp at the rear wheels, which is probably close to 550hp at the crank. Your numbers should be a bit better with the 3Vs. This engine is a torque monster starting at 2000rpms. You can definitely affect the curves by cam choice. I suggest staying on the lower end of cam aggressiveness. On the street you will enjoy the low end torque more than the high end horse power. I have a roller hyd comp cam: 230/236 @0.05 and .558 lift. I will venture to guess that my cam with .600" lift would give me a few more horses at the expense of some low end torque.

 

[basstrix]

The 408c I'm building uses TMeyer's stroker kit. He recommended his cam bearings and the oil mod (on his website). I've done both.

I asked if there was anything else he recommended and he said I could run an oil line from front tap back to the rear for added measure, but it's not needed at the RPM I'm building for (7000 max). He also recommended a standard flow pump and standard pressure bypass spring.

In addition to the above, the entry into oil filter flange was blended, replacing standard filter adapter with large diameter adapter for WIX high flow filter, radiused internal passage turns, chamfered drainback holes on the block, and blended the jagged hole at the front of the valley area. I'm also considering to open up the 4 oil drainback ports that bring oil from the heads....haven't evaluated the risks, yet.

 

[Grnmach1ne]

I'd discuss the oiling options with TMeyer. The lifter bore bushings are the ultimate fix, as long as your machine shop can do the work. It fixes the oiling issue and the worn lifter bores. His cam bearing kit shows the #1 bearing bore mod, which is the way I'd go. I'm running the Moroso restirctor kit to the cam bearings, but not the rear main galley plug as I have hydraulic rollers. I still have the 2500rpm "Cleveland Clatter".

https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/grooved-cam-bearings/

TMeyer has the oil galley plugs in his store.

Describe the "2500 rpm Cleveland Clatter". What causes it? I think I may have it!

 

[Zach]

Joining this thread a bit late. Good choice on sourcing the 408 kit from Tim. His part selection for the 408 is top notch. Also, good choice with the 3V heads. I now run CHI's 4V and with my 408 I am pushing 470hp at the rear wheels, which is probably close to 550hp at the crank. Your numbers should be a bit better with the 3Vs. This engine is a torque monster starting at 2000rpms. You can definitely affect the curves by cam choice. I suggest staying on the lower end of cam aggressiveness. On the street you will enjoy the low end torque more than the high end horse power. I have a roller hyd comp cam: 230/236 @0.05 and .558 lift. I will venture to guess that my cam with .600" lift would give me a few more horses at the expense of some low end torque.

Yep definitely won't be going too aggressive with the cam, I am prioritizing low end torque but I would enjoy being able to rev it high. Any reason you decided to go hyd instead of solid? I still haven't made my mind up between the two but I am leaning towards solid roller.

The 408c I'm building uses TMeyer's stroker kit. He recommended his cam bearings and the oil mod (on his website). I've done both.

I asked if there was anything else he recommended and he said I could run an oil line from front tap back to the rear for added measure, but it's not needed at the RPM I'm building for (7000 max). He also recommended a standard flow pump and standard pressure bypass spring.

In addition to the above, the entry into oil filter flange was blended, replacing standard filter adapter with large diameter adapter for WIX high flow filter, radiused internal passage turns, chamfered drainback holes on the block, and blended the jagged hole at the front of the valley area. I'm also considering to open up the 4 oil drainback ports that bring oil from the heads....haven't evaluated the risks, yet.

Thanks, after reading around I will definitely be opting for the performance grooved cam bearings as well as the oil adapter from tmeyer. I have heard about radiusing and blending but I am unsure if my machine shop knows the specifics of a Cleveland, or if it even matters, and I feel a bit sketched out shaving away at the block myself.

Thanks again everyone. Out of curiosity does anyone run his track boss bypass plate and 180 thermostat? It doesn't get too hot in Minnesota but I know I'm making a hopped up engine just want to avoid heat all I can. Also should I be worried about cylinder walls in a stock block bored 30 over? I know people say things but I haven't seen someone crack them.

 

[tony-muscle]

Yep definitely won't be going too aggressive with the cam, I am prioritizing low end torque but I would enjoy being able to rev it high. Any reason you decided to go hyd instead of solid? I still haven't made my mind up between the two but I am leaning towards solid roller.

Hydraulic is more maintenance free than solid. Back when I selected the cam I had no racing in my radar. I think if it were a solely drag racing car definitely solid is better. I don't drag race, but road race and autocross, which is not as demanding or dependent on high RPMs. Solids will give you more reliable power at high RPMs with the caveat of needing more adjusting. The issue nowadays is to find good hydraulic lifters. Tim swears by Gaterman's and those are the ones I have. You also can read very good reviews about them. I can rev my engine up to 6,500 and still fine, but granted that I don't leave it that high for too long. A couple of times I have hit 7,000 when I didn't have a rev limiter and got too happy on the pedal, but all good. In any case, if you decide for hydraulics make sure you get top quality lifters.

 

[Zach]

Hydraulic is more maintenance free than solid. Back when I selected the cam I had no racing in my radar. I think if it were a solely drag racing car definitely solid is better. I don't drag race, but road race and autocross, which is not as demanding or dependent on high RPMs. Solids will give you more reliable power at high RPMs with the caveat of needing more adjusting. The issue nowadays is to find good hydraulic lifters. Tim swears by Gaterman's and those are the ones I have. You also can read very good reviews about them. I can rev my engine up to 6,500 and still fine, but granted that I don't leave it that high for too long. A couple of times I have hit 7,000 when I didn't have a rev limiter and got too happy on the pedal, but all good. In any case, if you decide for hydraulics make sure you get top quality lifters.

I heard solids don’t need as much tinkering as they once did especially with lighter use but, I’m just regurgitating random forum posts I’ve read across the year. I’ve heard a lot of complaints with hyd like what you are saying main reason I was opting out seems they need a lot more initial setup to get right, where as a solid is just valve lashing every year or so. I’ll have to decide here pretty quick though.

 

[tony-muscle]

I heard solids don’t need as much tinkering as they once did especially with lighter use but, I’m just regurgitating random forum posts I’ve read across the year. I’ve heard a lot of complaints with hyd like what you are saying main reason I was opting out seems they need a lot more initial setup to get right, where as a solid is just valve lashing every year or so. I’ll have to decide here pretty quick though.

I agree. Pros and cons. I think for cars that are not driven that much solids should be fine, but I would listen to others with more experience. I don't know what the mean with more initial setup to get the hyd right. Where it gets more tricky is when you are measuring push rod length that you have to make sure that the lifter is pumped. This is easily accomplished by pumping the oil pressure with a drill just before and/or during measurement.

 

[Hemikiller]

Describe the "2500 rpm Cleveland Clatter". What causes it? I think I may have it!

2500rpm at light load, you can hear what sounds like valvetrain noise. Change the engine load, it goes away. This is the fourth engine I have run that had it. Always at 2500rpm. I took @tony-muscle for a ride a couple months ago and he heard it as well, so I'm not losing my mind. It's quite funny that when I searched Google for references to it, I kept running into old posts I made years ago on other forums on the same subject. Lots of people have had it, and just ran their engines for years. I'm just living with it. Next engine gets lifter bore bushings.

 

[tony-muscle]

2500rpm at light load, you can hear what sounds like valvetrain noise. Change the engine load, it goes away. This is the fourth engine I have run that had it. Always at 2500rpm. I took @tony-muscle for a ride a couple months ago and he heard it as well, so I'm not losing my mind. It's quite funny that when I searched Google for references to it, I kept running into old posts I made years ago on other forums on the same subject. Lots of people have had it, and just ran their engines for years. I'm just living with it. Next engine gets lifter bore bushings.

Definitely heard it. It probably has to do with the harmonics of the valve train setup.

 

[basstrix]

Yep definitely won't be going too aggressive with the cam, I am prioritizing low end torque but I would enjoy being able to rev it high. Any reason you decided to go hyd instead of solid? I still haven't made my mind up between the two but I am leaning towards solid roller.


Thanks, after reading around I will definitely be opting for the performance grooved cam bearings as well as the oil adapter from tmeyer. I have heard about radiusing and blending but I am unsure if my machine shop knows the specifics of a Cleveland, or if it even matters, and I feel a bit sketched out shaving away at the block myself.

Thanks again everyone. Out of curiosity does anyone run his track boss bypass plate and 180 thermostat? It doesn't get too hot in Minnesota but I know I'm making a hopped up engine just want to avoid heat all I can. Also should I be worried about cylinder walls in a stock block bored 30 over? I know people say things but I haven't seen someone crack them.

I was told by a respected engine builder that the longevity of the rollers on a hydraulic roller lifter is much greater than on a sold roller. I have no direct experience, but I went the hydraulic route.

Edit: Roller lifters are a rabbit hole one can get lost in. I contacted a few of the major cam manufacturers and learned that most of them source their hydraulic rollers from Morel. Johnson, Isky, and Gaterman are among the brands recommended consistently in my research. I went with Gaterman. I was advised that Morel used to be reliable, but as of the past 3-4 years, they are inconsistent....again, I have no direct experience with them, just passing on what I've been told by folks I trust.

Do a search on youtube for Dragboss Garage...he has video(s) on oil mods and shows the blending/radiusing. Those are not unique to the cleveland or to fords.

I run TMeyer's 180 thermostat. I have his bypass plate, but I haven't needed it yet, as mine are in good condition. You want to get the proper cleveland thermostat. They are unique. I highly recommend the high flow style sold by TMeyer and by Flowkooler. Flowkooler bought the rights to the original Robertshaw thermostat that was the go-to for clevelands, back in "the day". There are other options, but IMO, those two are the best.

 

[basstrix]

2500rpm at light load, you can hear what sounds like valvetrain noise. Change the engine load, it goes away. This is the fourth engine I have run that had it. Always at 2500rpm. I took @tony-muscle for a ride a couple months ago and he heard it as well, so I'm not losing my mind. It's quite funny that when I searched Google for references to it, I kept running into old posts I made years ago on other forums on the same subject. Lots of people have had it, and just ran their engines for years. I'm just living with it. Next engine gets lifter bore bushings.

Ok, now this has piqued my interest. My hearing is crap from really bad tinnitus, but occasionally, I hear this very light clatter....I'm running vacuum advance off of manifold manifold vac, and was thinking maybe it was pinging...last weekend I was testing using a vacuum pump, but didn't have my ears (my better half...she has selectively good hearing lol) so my test was inconclusive. I'll have to pay attention to see if it's at 2500 RPM, but what I'm hearing fits the cleveland clatter description. I should note that I have a pair of detonation sensors and they do not activate when I hear this noise....but then, I'm not terribly confident in their sensing ability on the cleveland and in the location I have them mounted.

 

[Zach]

I was told by a respected engine builder that the longevity of the rollers on a hydraulic roller lifter is much greater than on a sold roller. I have no direct experience, but I went the hydraulic route.

Edit: Roller lifters are a rabbit hole one can get lost in. I contacted a few of the major cam manufacturers and learned that most of them source their hydraulic rollers from Morel. Johnson, Isky, and Gaterman are among the brands recommended consistently in my research. I went with Gaterman. I was advised that Morel used to be reliable, but as of the past 3-4 years, they are inconsistent....again, I have no direct experience with them, just passing on what I've been told by folks I trust.

Do a search on youtube for Dragboss Garage...he has video(s) on oil mods and shows the blending/radiusing. Those are not unique to the cleveland or to fords.

I run TMeyer's 180 thermostat. I have his bypass plate, but I haven't needed it yet, as mine are in good condition. You want to get the proper cleveland thermostat. They are unique. I highly recommend the high flow style sold by TMeyer and by Flowkooler. Flowkooler bought the rights to the original Robertshaw thermostat that was the go-to for clevelands, back in "the day". There are other options, but IMO, those two are the best.

I’ll have to do more research I guess, learned quite a bit from dragboss, mostly his oil tips. From what I heard tmeyers are the original design but I just glanced quickly haven’t research cooling as of yet, issue once engine is more put together. Thanks for the input.