big block vs small block?

[Tubo]

So you want to be one of those guys also. Continue on the lil OCD trip and everyone else will continue to not care about the difference between a motor and an engine.

HA!! One of those kind, eh?? No appreciation fer nit pickin.!!:angel:

 

[JimNiki]

If a term has been used by so many people for so long, it becomes colloqiallised.

Many proper words originated from "street" talk, and are now the norm.

We can argue where certain terms originated, but today, we all know what we mean.

Moffat won the most enduring 8 hour, now legend, Bathurst. ( was called the hardie ferodo 500 back in71) in his 351c, solid cam.

Drove it to the race, then back home. Pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to do it with a "bigger" block motor. (I mean engine)! Hehe

Just my halfpenny (or is that 2¢).

 

[cazsper]

So, is it gas or fuel?...lol

 

[hyena429]

I hate to disagree - okay, not really. Everyone will agree that the 460 is a big block motor that can make monster power. Also, most agree that the Windsor motors and the 351C all are what is referred to as a small block motor.

Ford did make small blocks and big blocks and had to stick to regulations to be able to race them...Btw...If we wanna get technical about what people call things...Calling a 351 a "Windsor" is wrong....Calling a 351 "Modified" is wrong too...Ford if you noticed only used FE, MEL, Y, and such to describe motors...351 was orginaly only called a W...and same with 351M...Nicknames caught on quick with them...And i dont consider a 351 a mid block..But i do consider a 351 M and 400 M a true mid block...It is too small to be a big block..and way to over built to be a small block..I'll stand by that one.

It just makes me want to cry!!

The term has been mis-used and mis-applied by so many folks for so long, everyone now thinks it's propper.

So much so, both above statements are dead Wrong!!

Cos, technically speaking, they ain't motors they're freakin ENGINES

An engine takes potential energy(like gasoline), and produces useful energy. The ability to do work

A motor converts one type of energy(fer insstance electricity) to useful energy. The ability to do work.

Clips and Magazines next

Dead wrong? Nope.... People have changed both words around ....."Engine" was originally a term for " any " mechanical device that converts force into motion. If you wanna get down to the real meaning of the word Engine... Engine is just a generic word that has been abused..... if i walk outside and swing a rope with a stick on it..that is a Engine too.

When the internal combustion engine was invented, the term "motor" was initially used to distinguish it from the steam engine—which was in wide use at the time, powering locomotives and other vehicles such as steam rollers, and trucks.... "Motor" and "engine" later came to be used interchangeably in casual discourse.

Original meaning of “motor” was another word for “mover,” i.e., a thing which moves the rest of the device.....And so much of what was posted is not wrong...Technically speaking, Engine is a motor. That's why it's not incorrect to speak of a motorboat, or a motorcar, or a motor speedway...Never hear anyone complain about a calling it a boat motor or outboard motor....even know it is using gas and gears to turn a prop..Just the same as a car turning wheels...No dif.

 

[cazsper]

So, if I'm torn between a big engine (520 stroker) or a small engine (393/408) probably with a paxton Novi-2000, I'm thinking the supercharged small block (motor/engine) would be more streetable. Right? I can use less cam and more boost for streetability. The way I see it, the small block may be a little more $ due to the supercharger and maybe an aftermarket block. Regardless of what I do for EFI, it's all going to cost about the same.

As for weight, I would assume the 393/408 with aluminum heads and intake would still weigh less than the 520 stroker even with the paxton. As far as weight distribution goes.

Am I missing anything?

 

[hyena429]

I think both would make you happy...Sorry for going side ways on your thread there Cazsper

Apples and oranges.....I think both can be a great street motor if built right...I have drove a 503 hp natrualy asperated 467 cube pontiac in town..and it was nice and dreamy...It acted fine in town and was a baby..Not jerky or anything...even had tall gears and a 4 speed...i had no issues driving like a old granny in the car if i wanted.....yet had enough power to go crazy when you wanted...Big advantage i would give to big blocks...Cubes and durability..Just seems like they have a much longer life span over all...Small block...they are lighter over all and easier to fit and work around in your engine bay.

 

[cazsper]

No apologies, I get it.. my concern is that I won't have enough room to change spark plugs with a 460 based motor..

 

[hyena429]

No apologies, I get it.. my concern is that I won't have enough room to change spark plugs with a 460 based motor..

Ya..That is a issue.....heck some plugs in my cleveland i can hardly get too with out removing things too...But when it comes down to it..You wont be changing plugs that much to make it a big deal to remove the shock tower supports when you need to change plugs.

 

[BigPinoyHunk]

No apologies, I get it.. my concern is that I won't have enough room to change spark plugs with a 460 based motor..

Ya..That is a issue.....heck some plugs in my cleveland i can hardly get too with out removing things too...But when it comes down to it..You wont be changing plugs that much to make it a big deal to remove the shock tower supports when you need to change plugs.

i don't know what you guys are talking about, i can change plugs on my rig without removing braces. i have plenty of room on both sides, however with my large and tall valve covers, i need to remove the shock tower braces to check valve springs and lash.

i want to go to get easy disconnect braces so after every other race its easy to remove valve covers to check valve springs and lash.

its not a big deal to change plus on a 460 in our engine bay.

 

[sm3570]

No apologies, I get it.. my concern is that I won't have enough room to change spark plugs with a 460 based motor..

Ya..That is a issue.....heck some plugs in my cleveland i can hardly get too with out removing things too...But when it comes down to it..You wont be changing plugs that much to make it a big deal to remove the shock tower supports when you need to change plugs.

i don't know what you guys are talking about, i can change plugs on my rig without removing braces. i have plenty of room on both sides, however with my large and tall valve covers, i need to remove the shock tower braces to check valve springs and lash.

i want to go to get easy disconnect braces so after every other race its easy to remove valve covers to check valve springs and lash.

its not a big deal to change plus on a 460 in our engine bay.

Same with my 429.

 

[hyena429]

No apologies, I get it.. my concern is that I won't have enough room to change spark plugs with a 460 based motor..

Ya..That is a issue.....heck some plugs in my cleveland i can hardly get too with out removing things too...But when it comes down to it..You wont be changing plugs that much to make it a big deal to remove the shock tower supports when you need to change plugs.

i don't know what you guys are talking about, i can change plugs on my rig without removing braces. i have plenty of room on both sides, however with my large and tall valve covers, i need to remove the shock tower braces to check valve springs and lash.

i want to go to get easy disconnect braces so after every other race its easy to remove valve covers to check valve springs and lash.

its not a big deal to change plus on a 460 in our engine bay.

A few plugs in my 351c was hard to get too..Not a big issue even if you have to take off the shock tower braces...they are easy to remove..I debated removing them when i last took out my spark plugs...mine is a ac car thou..Mite have more things in the way then some people do.

 

[wwhite72]

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/dyno-board/508775-pantera-403c-dyno.html

Saw this 2012 post by Dan Jones wih VERY detailed specs and dyno numbers on a simple Cleveland build that easily pulled +550 HP for what he plans to be a daily driver. The detail on the head choices is interesting and he also tried a scott cook intake. Good work Dan!

 

[BigPinoyHunk]

Ya..That is a issue.....heck some plugs in my cleveland i can hardly get too with out removing things too...But when it comes down to it..You wont be changing plugs that much to make it a big deal to remove the shock tower supports when you need to change plugs.

i don't know what you guys are talking about, i can change plugs on my rig without removing braces. i have plenty of room on both sides, however with my large and tall valve covers, i need to remove the shock tower braces to check valve springs and lash.

i want to go to get easy disconnect braces so after every other race its easy to remove valve covers to check valve springs and lash.

its not a big deal to change plus on a 460 in our engine bay.

A few plugs in my 351c was hard to get too..Not a big issue even if you have to take off the shock tower braces...they are easy to remove..I debated removing them when i last took out my spark plugs...mine is a ac car thou..Mite have more things in the way then some people do.

maybe you have shrek hands compared to us then!!

 

[hyena429]

i don't know what you guys are talking about, i can change plugs on my rig without removing braces. i have plenty of room on both sides, however with my large and tall valve covers, i need to remove the shock tower braces to check valve springs and lash.

i want to go to get easy disconnect braces so after every other race its easy to remove valve covers to check valve springs and lash.

its not a big deal to change plus on a 460 in our engine bay.

A few plugs in my 351c was hard to get too..Not a big issue even if you have to take off the shock tower braces...they are easy to remove..I debated removing them when i last took out my spark plugs...mine is a ac car thou..Mite have more things in the way then some people do.

maybe you have shrek hands compared to us then!!

is that why the women love me so much? My big hands?

 

[Mister 4x4]

A few plugs in my 351c was hard to get too..Not a big issue even if you have to take off the shock tower braces...they are easy to remove..I debated removing them when i last took out my spark plugs...mine is a ac car thou..Mite have more things in the way then some people do.

Yeah, I was noticing that when I dropped my 351C-2V in there. It was already looking to get a little tight with just the engine... then headers, A/C plumbing, and power steering hoses on the driver side look to make things interesting (or will that be irritating?).

Big block vs. Cleveland - could it be the bigger displacement engines have less angle (piston travel direction in relation to the crank) than the Clevelands? I ask because the Cleveland looks to be close to 90-degrees, which tends to make the engine look a little 'stuffed' into the engine compartment. The big blocks are, well... 'big' in there (from sheer size), but they seem to have about the same or maybe a little more clearance (side to side) than the Clevelands do. Or maybe it's just eyes playing tricks.

Also, after things are settled in, I'm planning on yanking the Edelbrock 600 in favor of their E-Street EFI set-up. My understanding is that the system is good out to 600hp, and is completely tunable as well. Pricey (around $2400), but I think it'll be worth it down the road (cold starts, altitude changes, etc.).

 

[Finmach]

So, if I'm torn between a big engine (520 stroker) or a small engine (393/408) probably with a paxton Novi-2000, I'm thinking the supercharged small block (motor/engine) would be more streetable. Right? I can use less cam and more boost for streetability. The way I see it, the small block may be a little more $ due to the supercharger and maybe an aftermarket block. Regardless of what I do for EFI, it's all going to cost about the same.

As for weight, I would assume the 393/408 with aluminum heads and intake would still weigh less than the 520 stroker even with the paxton. As far as weight distribution goes.

Am I missing anything?

I've got to correct my previous statements, when you want a big power 800-1000 hp, then your springpressures starts to grow, like 300 lbs of seat pressure and 800 lbs of open pressure - then you're imo on high side. But for 520 cid with 500-600 hp, you are still running soft springs imo - so no worry about the spring pressures at that level. Big engine, good heads, and relatively mild hydraulic roller you can make pretty good hp numbers. But for 500 hp you don't need exotic cam or even ported heads. Heck, I was running std. bore std. stroke 460 cid and the engine produced (before the head porting) +580 hp and +560 lbs of torque with hydraulic flat tappet.

You can use the ready to run EFI kits from FAST, Holley or what ever you want, they'll support from 500-600 hp level easily. Friend of mine has cammed out and ported head 429 (4.360" bore and 3.590" stroke), it made around 450 hp, pulled the 4600 lbs Galaxie like grazy and it made 16.8 MPG with four speed Toploader on highway. That was 1970 thunderjet passenger engine with 11:0 compression ratio with Holley EFI Commander system with the 900 cfm throttle body.

IF there's a power and if the power is used, then it needs gasoline. Power doesn't come for free, 500 hp 302 needs basically the same fuel as does the 500 hp 429 when the power is used.

I know you've been thinking of supercharging the engine, thats a good point, but brings weight in front and high - not a good thing, thats exactly againts the idea of getting rid of the weight with with al.headed 351w. When the weight moves from the middle of the front axle towards the front, it makes the driveability even worst. I would more likely to increase the weight rather than pushing the weight forward.

Aluminium headed sbf is naturally lighter than al. headed bbf. But the aluminium headed bb is lighter than stock iron head/intake 351c 4V for example. Now this is the case, so how light engine do you want? Are going to make it a racecar or street car?

I've had both versions of '72 Mach 1. 1) 351c 4V with auto and 2) 460cid with manual. I am not looking back to 351c 4V eventhough it was a nice engine. Driveability changed for sure - I just didn't noticed it, maybe my memory makes some tricks... There was so little extra weight of 133 lbs that occured, new 460 cid was pretty close to the 351c weight there was, but the extra weight went for the frame connectors & cross bars, new 3 1/2" exhaust with (1/12" wall), heavy rear leafs, Caltracs etc. If this would have been a track car I would have noticed the diffrence probably in the corner carving but otherwise not plus the frame got stiffer.

Afterall it's the combination that counts. You can get a nice package with stroked w/c/385, anyway you chooce, you can ruin a perfectly good engine with a wrong convertor and with wrong rear gears.

 

[cudak888]

Btw...If we wanna get technical about what people call things...Calling a 351 a "Windsor" is wrong....Calling a 351 "Modified" is wrong too...Ford if you noticed only used FE, MEL, Y, and such to describe motors...351 was orginaly only called a W...and same with 351M...Nicknames caught on quick with them...And i dont consider a 351 a mid block..But i do consider a 351 M and 400 M a true mid block...It is too small to be a big block..and way to over built to be a small block..I'll stand by that one.

Just to nitpick some more: Calling a 400 a "400M" is wrong too. Only the 351M carries the designation. The 400 is simply the "400."

-Kurt

 

[droptop73]

Big inch (408 - 428) windsor based and turbos. Turbos give you added power without the parasitic loss of the Paxton. You canmake stupid drivable power with turbos. Widsor because of the tremendous parts selection. Good parts for Clevelands and the 385 series are scarcer and more expensive.

Here's some good stuff from Ford. http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/charts/352-428_FR_parts.pdf

 

[mdan575]

Big inch (408 - 428) windsor based and turbos. Turbos give you added power without the parasitic loss of the Paxton. You canmake stupid drivable power with turbos. Widsor because of the tremendous parts selection. Good parts for Clevelands and the 385 series are scarcer and more expensive.

Here's some good stuff from Ford. http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/charts/352-428_FR_parts.pdf

While a turbo has a good chunk less parasitic loss than many roots or centrifugal superchargers it is hardly free power. Generally speaking alot more complicated with all the plumbing involved also.

 

[droptop73]

Nothing is free for sure Piping can be difficult, especially in a car never intended to use a turbo. There are many options in every build.