exploding oil filter, Please Help!!

[Omie01]

Well remember, I did successfully prime the oil system twice, I watched the oil reach the rockers and return via the head drains. As I think back to what exactly happened, Wed night was the first prime, (40w oil) drill set at 1000 rpm, as I first started I felt the resistance build, then it planed off and I watched the oil come up to the rockers, so far so good. Friday I finished up assembly and went to prime the system and just floored the drill, felt the resistance build again, and then POP went the filter. So we went and got oil/ different "WIX" filter, dropped the rpm of the drill to 400 rpm, had my wife watch the gauge, I started the prime slowly and felt the resistance climb again, but it got to a point where it planed off again, (this time 30w oil), as she watched the gauge it spiked to 80psi, then dropped to about 60psi, so I floored the drill to 400rpm and the pressure planed off at about 65psi and I could hear the oil moving around in the engine. So after the second successful prime, we just fired the engine up, it ran for about 30 seconds and POP went the second filter. I can only conclude that for some reason the pump bypass is sticky as it clearly will open if I am cautious during prime, but if I just floor it it pops filters. Its my understanding that the valve in the filter is an anti-drain-back valve that keeps oil in the filter for the next start up. I would suspect if the pressure valve was just stuck or defective it would pop a filter no matter what. I am going to try to get the pan out with the engine in the car as I no longer have the means to pull the engine all together unless I rent a trailer. I looked under the car yesterday as I was cleaning 14 qts of fluid off my floor and I think it can be done. I have oil pan studs installed so lining up the gaskets and pan is no issue, and I have many gasket removal tools and will not reseal the pan unless I am 100% happy with the clean-up. I may have to drop the front sway bar and raise the engine a couple inches but I think its do-able. I'll keep everybody posted. Thanks for all the info gents!! PS: I hope to hear from the pump maker and engine builder today also.:thankyouyellow:

 

[Paul of MO]

To clarify, the filter bypass is intended to address a clogged filter element. In the case where the element becomes clogged the bypass allows oil to bypass the element and prevents it from being disintegrated and pumped through the engine. I've seen the result of a disintegrated element first hand...it's mostly plastered to the oil pickup screen.

I believe you stated that you had normal pressure at the gauge. I suggest you tap into the port shown adjacent to the fuel pump (in the diagram Paul posted) to see what the pressure is right at the pump discharge. With a stock spring, you should see no more than ~70psi. With a stuck bypass, it should be easy to go beyond that. The premise is that the restrictors limit the volume of oil able to reach the pressure port at the rear of the block and only allow you to see 60-70 psi, despite much higher pressure upstream of the first restrictor. I don't have first-hand experience with this scenario, I'm only offing based on my understanding and application of fluid dynamics.

A much shorter way of saying what I said is that if you plugged the wrong passage and 100% blocked your first main bearing the pump simply can not bypass all of that pressure. Check the pressure by the fuel pump and it will be over 300 at 3000 rpm even with a correctly functioning bypass.

Paul of Mo

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

All oil passes thru the filter on every engine I am aware of that use a filter.

I was a Chevy guy in the day and they are full-flow design as only around 20%

of oil is filtered as oil filter oil is by-passed after 10-15 psi. So in the event of

a plugged filter there is still unfiltered oil lubricating things.

If a Cleveland has 100% of oil going through the filter with no by-pass by

design then I understand how a filter could blow with too much pressure.

Just learning Ford engines here very interesting thread!

Paul

Paul,

You are right on some having partial flow. Chevy was slow in putting filters on at all. I believe it was an option for a partial flow filter into the 50's. Did 265 engine have a filter? They wanted you to change oil every 1,000 miles. Ford had a partial flow on the flathead and the filter can was on top of the engine not hidden.

David

 

[barnett468]

It doesn't matter where the pressure gauge is located in the system, because in general, the pressure within the system is the same everywhere.

There is a bypass valve in the oil pump just as I and others have stated . There is ALSO an anti drain back valve in the filter.

As I mentioned, I would try a high pressure filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 oil first before assuming the valve is stuck because it is far less work.

 

[Mikes73]

I always thought that with a cleveland you would get a more realistic (lower) oil pressure reading at the back of the engine vs tapping in at the front by the oil filter.

 

[EBSTANG]

I always thought that with a cleveland you would get a more realistic (lower) oil pressure reading at the back of the engine vs tapping in at the front by the oil filter.

Agree. It is not a completely closed/filled system, like a water pipe in your house. Pressure will "logically/most likely" be lower at the top/rear of the block, furthest away from the output of the oil pump. Safest to connect your gauge to, for "monitoring overall, running oil pressure." "Testing" pressure at the port by the fuel pump is definitely a good location for specific diagnostic tests, (ie, eliminating pump variables) as these guys above are suggesting/pleading. Why not test/look there? At this point, it is a matter of collecting information you can easily gather, which MAY change your course, prior to pulling the pan and/or engine.

In any case, you may learn something by doing it. Scientific method.

 

[Don65Stang]

It doesn't matter where the pressure gauge is located in the system, because in general, the pressure within the system is the same everywhere.

There is a bypass valve in the oil pump just as I and others have stated . There is ALSO an anti drain back valve in the filter.

As I mentioned, I would try a high pressure filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 oil first before assuming the valve is stuck because it is far less work.

This is bad advice... put a high pressure filter on and run it??? If OP has a blockage then that will result in the destruction of his crankshaft along with the first two connecting rods. No oil in that part of the engine is bad.

Even if it is just the pump then what good does it do to put a high pressure racing filter on it? Great, the filter does not burst. OP still has a bad pump and will still damage the distributor gear on the cam.

 

[barnett468]

I always thought that with a cleveland you would get a more realistic (lower) oil pressure reading at the back of the engine vs tapping in at the front by the oil filter.

No, it's the same everywhere, however it certainly doesn't hurt to check it at another location.

If you have a 12" long pipe with a cap on one end and an oil pump on the other and you put 12 different size holes in it . The pressure exiting the hole at the beginning will be exactly the same as the pressure exiting the last hole irregardless of the size of that hole . This is why the pressure in an oil pressure gauge that is fed by a 1/8" line is exactly the same as the pressure at the 1/2" hole at the exit of the oil pump.

 

[basstrix]

To clarify, the filter bypass is intended to address a clogged filter element. In the case where the element becomes clogged the bypass allows oil to bypass the element and prevents it from being disintegrated and pumped through the engine. I've seen the result of a disintegrated element first hand...it's mostly plastered to the oil pickup screen.

I believe you stated that you had normal pressure at the gauge. I suggest you tap into the port shown adjacent to the fuel pump (in the diagram Paul posted) to see what the pressure is right at the pump discharge. With a stock spring, you should see no more than ~70psi. With a stuck bypass, it should be easy to go beyond that. The premise is that the restrictors limit the volume of oil able to reach the pressure port at the rear of the block and only allow you to see 60-70 psi, despite much higher pressure upstream of the first restrictor. I don't have first-hand experience with this scenario, I'm only offing based on my understanding and application of fluid dynamics.

A much shorter way of saying what I said is that if you plugged the wrong passage and 100% blocked your first main bearing the pump simply can not bypass all of that pressure. Check the pressure by the fuel pump and it will be over 300 at 3000 rpm even with a correctly functioning bypass.

Paul of Mo

Paul,

I was wondering what fraction of the pump's capacity the bypass was designed to handle. I certainly don't know, but I'm with you on the point you're making above.

BT

 

[barnett468]

.

It doesn't matter where the pressure gauge is located in the system, because in general, the pressure within the system is the same everywhere.

There is a bypass valve in the oil pump just as I and others have stated . There is ALSO an anti drain back valve in the filter.

As I mentioned, I would try a high pressure filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 oil first before assuming the valve is stuck because it is far less work.

This is bad advice... put a high pressure filter on and run it??? If OP has a blockage then that will result in the destruction of his crankshaft along with the first two connecting rods. No oil in that part of the engine is bad.

Even if it is just the pump then what good does it do to put a high pressure racing filter on it? Great, the filter does not burst. OP still has a bad pump and will still damage the distributor gear on the cam.

I based this suggestion on the fact that he has primed the engine and saw oil coming out of all the push rods . The oil goes to the crank before or at the same time it goes to the cam on a Cleveland, therefore it's reasonable to theorize that since there is oil flow to the cam, there is oil flow to the crank as well, especially since it is impossible to install the crank bearings in a way that would allow oil flow to the cam but not the crank.

Also, he has also already started his engine, so if there was some blockage inside the engine itself, it may have already done damage, plus if there was a blockage inside the engine and he changed the pump the engine could still get damaged.

A high pressure filter will not damage anything if he does it the way I suggested in post 28 below. I suggested the high pressure filter after he mentioned it himself because it will eliminate the possibility of the filters he had simply not being able to withstand their advertised burst pressures . I know of several street engines running as much as 120 psi and they have for many years although this is not the norm.

I think I also suggested he call Tim Meyer for his opinion if that is the person whom built his engine . Tim Meyer is an authority on this series of engines and a premier engine builder and one of the very few people that has a fixture to properly align the lifter bores in a Cleveland, and if he built the engine, I think it is highly unlikely he made a mistake but things do occasionally happen.

FROM POST 28

ok, i reread your thread.

your brad penn was thinner than your straight weight vr1 when it was cold so that made the problem WORSE.

i also see that you are in minnesota so i looked up the air temp which was around a high of 50.

the oil filters you tried have a burst pressure of around 300 psi . a royal purple filter is 600 psi but the seal should blow at around 300 psi.

before you tear the thing apart, you might consider installing a royal purple filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 conventional oil with at least 1150 ppm of ZDDP or ZDDB.

I would also consider using a dedicated break in oil.

if your oil pressure stays above 100 for more than a few seconds, i would turn it off and remove the pump.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Conventional+-+5W-30/N0423/C0162.oap

ROYAL PURPLE BREAK IN OIL ... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1200

COMP CAMS BREAK IN OIL ....... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 3000

VALVOLINE VR-1 ..................... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1250

JOE GIBBS HOT ROD OIL .......... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1250

.

 

[Paul of MO]

I always thought that with a cleveland you would get a more realistic (lower) oil pressure reading at the back of the engine vs tapping in at the front by the oil filter.

No, it's the same everywhere, however it certainly doesn't hurt to check it at another location.

If you have a 12" long pipe with a cap on one end and an oil pump on the other and you put 12 different size holes in it . The pressure exiting the hole at the beginning will be exactly the same as the pressure exiting the last hole irregardless of the size of that hole . This is why the pressure in an oil pressure gauge that is fed by a 1/8" line is exactly the same as the pressure at the 1/2" hole at the exit of the oil pump.

For what it is worth:

There is actually a formula for the pressure drop within an engine as the oil moves through various restrictions:

Pressure Drop (ΔP) = [GPM ÷ (23.5 × A)]2 in which, A = Orifice Area, Sq. ln.

I actually remembered this - you do not know how much fun it is to remember something like this from years gone by!

But it did take me a while to figure out how to post the Delta P part. I did google it to make sure I was not having a senior moment.

In the past we have hooked up one gauge at the very front of a Cleveland and one at the very back and saw as much as a 20 percent drop between the two.

Worthless information but still fun!

Paul of MO

 

[Don65Stang]

.

It doesn't matter where the pressure gauge is located in the system, because in general, the pressure within the system is the same everywhere.

There is a bypass valve in the oil pump just as I and others have stated . There is ALSO an anti drain back valve in the filter.

As I mentioned, I would try a high pressure filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 oil first before assuming the valve is stuck because it is far less work.

This is bad advice... put a high pressure filter on and run it??? If OP has a blockage then that will result in the destruction of his crankshaft along with the first two connecting rods. No oil in that part of the engine is bad.

Even if it is just the pump then what good does it do to put a high pressure racing filter on it? Great, the filter does not burst. OP still has a bad pump and will still damage the distributor gear on the cam.

I based this suggestion on the fact that he has primed the engine and saw oil coming out of all the push rods . The oil goes to the crank before or at the same time it goes to the cam on a Cleveland, therefore it's reasonable to theorize that since there is oil flow to the cam, there is oil flow to the crank as well, especially since it is impossible to install the crank bearings in a way that would allow oil flow to the cam but not the crank.

Also, he has also already started his engine, so if there was some blockage inside the engine itself, it may have already done damage, plus is there was a blockage inside the engine and he changed the pump the engine would still get damaged.

It will not damage anything if he does it the way I suggested in post 28 .

FROM POST 28

ok, i reread your thread.

your brad penn was thinner than your straight weight vr1 when it was cold so that made the problem WORSE.

i also see that you are in minnesota so i looked up the air temp which was around a high of 50.

the oil filters you tried have a burst pressure of around 300 psi . a royal purple filter is 600 psi but the seal should blow at around 300 psi.

before you tear the thing apart, you might consider installing a royal purple filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 conventional oil with at least 1150 ppm of ZDDP or ZDDB.

I would also consider using a dedicated break in oil.

if your oil pressure stays above 100 for more than a few seconds, i would turn it off and remove the pump.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Conventional+-+5W-30/N0423/C0162.oap

ROYAL PURPLE BREAK IN OIL ... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1200

COMP CAMS BREAK IN OIL ....... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 3000

VALVOLINE VR-1 ..................... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1250

JOE GIBBS HOT ROD OIL .......... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1250

.

...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

 

[barnett468]

...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

I added more to my post above which you didn't see.

.


.

It has not been broken in, but was ran on a simulator.

Are you saying that the engine was broken in on a simulator or the cam was?

If the engine was broken in who did it?

What oil pump did they use?

What oil did they use?

I figured you were referring to the engine which is another reason I suggested just trying the thinner oil and higher pressure filter . If the engine was broken in then there should be no blockages in it . If there were, it would have likely damaged something by now and if the builder broke it in, I would hope he would have corrected any probs before delivering it to you, especially if he is providing a warranty with it.

.

 

[Paul of MO]

To clarify, the filter bypass is intended to address a clogged filter element. In the case where the element becomes clogged the bypass allows oil to bypass the element and prevents it from being disintegrated and pumped through the engine. I've seen the result of a disintegrated element first hand...it's mostly plastered to the oil pickup screen.

I believe you stated that you had normal pressure at the gauge. I suggest you tap into the port shown adjacent to the fuel pump (in the diagram Paul posted) to see what the pressure is right at the pump discharge. With a stock spring, you should see no more than ~70psi. With a stuck bypass, it should be easy to go beyond that. The premise is that the restrictors limit the volume of oil able to reach the pressure port at the rear of the block and only allow you to see 60-70 psi, despite much higher pressure upstream of the first restrictor. I don't have first-hand experience with this scenario, I'm only offing based on my understanding and application of fluid dynamics.

A much shorter way of saying what I said is that if you plugged the wrong passage and 100% blocked your first main bearing the pump simply can not bypass all of that pressure. Check the pressure by the fuel pump and it will be over 300 at 3000 rpm even with a correctly functioning bypass.

Paul of Mo

Paul,

I was wondering what fraction of the pump's capacity the bypass was designed to handle. I certainly don't know, but I'm with you on the point you're making above.

BT

That is a very good question and google does not seem to know the answer.

Melling does not say other than that they state when the bypass is activated your engine will still receive oil pressure.

I went out the the junk pile, grabbed an old Cleveland pump and measured the opening with the bypass open. Did some calculations (with a slide rule) and figured that it is about a 40 percent bypass once the bypass is fully open.

So with a blocked oil passage early in the system you could have easily have 300 psi at the filter and it would probably burst.

I now better understand what I kinda sorta new all along.

Thanks,

Paul of MO

 

[Don65Stang]

...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

I added more to my post above which you didn't see.

It is only what I and the other staff members do see on the forum that matters. Whether you added to your post or not is irrelevant.

 

[Paul of MO]

...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

At this point he hopefully does not have a scored crank and he certainly does not have rods hanging out the side of the block. But he could if he does what you are suggesting.

Running the engine with a blocked oil galley going to the first main bearing means no oil to the main and no oil to the first set of connecting rods. There is nothing good that will come from this.

Even if it is the bypass then why stress the oil pump drive components?

A few seconds with no oil can and will destroy and engine.

(He has a roller cam - break in oil and additive levels are irreverent)

Paul of MO

 

[barnett468]

It is only what I and the other staff members do see on the forum that matters. Whether you added to your post or not is irrelevant.

I don't understand your comment . I accidentally hit the post button instead of the review button before I was finished posting so I simply hit the edit button so I could complete my post and reposted it . I did not even see your post until I was done posting which you can see by the time of my edit which was 3 minutes before you posted . My apologies that my post was incomplete at the time you saw it.

.


.

(He has a roller cam - break in oil and additive levels are irreverent)

Paul of MO

Omie1, break in oils are not irrelevant on roller cam engines according to Joe Gibbs Racing and Total Seal Piston Rings and Timken bearings . According to them, in addition to laying down a coating of ZDDP on the cam to improve the cam to roller interface, the break in package is also there to help the break in of other areas where there are high pressure . I prefer not to risk engine damage when I break in engines and therefore try to take every precaution I can.

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/roller-cams-need-break-in-too/

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/06/24/roller-derby-how-to-properly-break-in-a-roller-camshaft/

EXCERPT

"Think of a break-in oil like a primer. Putting down primer before you paint establishes a uniform coating to build from, and that is exactly what a break-in oil does – it establishes a uniform anti-wear film that provides the foundation for protection. Just like a thick coat of primer smoothes out a surface, a properly formulated break-in oil does the same thing. The protective layer of ZDDP anti-wear film smoothes out the peaks and valleys that comprise microscopic surfaces on the roller wheels and needle bearings."

"Matt Hartford from Total Seal agreed. “High performance ring packs need the right balance of chemical additives in the oil to ensure maximum performance,” he explained. “That is why we worked with Driven to develop our own line of break-in oils. The Driven product is proven to provide the best ring seal while also protecting the valve train. Performance engines typically have roller cams or at least roller rockers, so using the correct break-in oil is critical to keeping the entire engine happy.”

"The more aggressive the valve train, the more critical these details become. “It is hard to fall off the bottom of the mountain,” said Brian Reese from COMP Cams. “The more aggressive the valve train is in terms of lift, duration and spring pressure, the less margin of error you have. The little details become critical.”

.

 

[Omie01]

WOW, I did not mean to start this kind of discussion, but heres the latest news, I tried a K&N HP filter last night, again everything primed fine, oil to the rockers etc..... I walked away for 10 minutes, and came back and just floored the drill and did not pop the filter, I did this several times without popping the filter so I thought maybe we had a winner. BUT.............Once I started the engine, POP went the weasal. So before I do any damage, the pump is getting replaced. I talked to the pump manufacturer yesterday and he said he will replace the pump, I also talked to Tim yesterday and he said he simulated the engine after build and verified that oil IS getting to everything in the engine so I don't think there are any restrictions, I think for whatever reason the bypass valve is just getting stuck during the initial pressure spike upon start-up. Thanks for all the info and advise gents, as usual there is so much wisdom and expertise here on the forum. Will keep everybody posted!!!

 

[Paul of MO]

Omie,

You did not start anything bad. You have a lot of time and money in your new engine and the members of this group would be heartbroken if it got damaged due to dubious advice.

I am concerned that you blew a HP filter the second the engine fired up.

Here is my logic.

If the bypass is stuck open then you would have normal oil pressure when cold and low oil pressure when warm. If it is stuck closed then you would have high pressure when the engine is cold and normal pressure when warm.

I just don't think a standard pressure oil pump that is not bypassing when cold could pop a HP filter rated at 600 pounds. It certainly could not make enough psi to pop this type filter if it was stuck open and bypassing unless something is blocking the oil flow. I hope I am wrong.

The cam and lifters can still get oil if the first main galley is blocked through the small passage that feeds the distributor. This would be one hell of a restriction but some oil would get past.

You have to keep us posted. There are a lot of people following this.

Paul of Mo

 

[73pony]

I keep seeing this "simulated" of the engine. Can someone explain what this is? I've been reading this everything I am seeing points to a blocked oil passage, I am no expert though. Paul's logic seems to make sense to me. I just don't know what is being referred to as far as running on a simulator?