Questions on adjusting Timing

[f117rt]

I Installed The Pertronix II system in this morning using the stock coil. Easy install and it ran and idled well.

I am still having problems upon accelerating while driving. If I baby it she drives fine. As soon as I get on it the carb pops and backfires.

At this point I need to make sure the timing is properly set before I start playing around with the carb.

I borrowed agood timing light and an Analyzer from a friend.

The first thing I need to do is disconnect the vacuum hose from the distributor.

Do I plug both the hose and dstributor? or just the line?

What should the needle be pointing to?

Once this is set, do I have to check it with the vacuum line connected back to the distributor?

Sorry for all the question, but I guess that the Ford manuals are written for mechanic and not noobs.

Is there a website or link that woiuld guide me through this?

 

[72fastback]

I Installed The Pertronix II system in this morning using the stock coil. Easy install and it ran and idled well.

I am still having problems upon accelerating while driving. If I baby it she drives fine. As soon as I get on it the carb pops and backfires.

At this point I need to make sure the timing is properly set before I start playing around with the carb.

I borrowed agood timing light and an Analyzer from a friend.

The first thing I need to do is disconnect the vacuum hose from the distributor.

Do I plug both the hose and dstributor? or just the line?

What should the needle be pointing to?

Once this is set, do I have to check it with the vacuum line connected back to the distributor?

Sorry for all the question, but I guess that the Ford manuals are written for mechanic and not noobs.

Is there a website or link that woiuld guide me through this?

I am having a problem with backfires with the ignitor 3 from petronix view my threads on the resistance and backfiring.the resistance wire can cause problems in our cars they usually need to be bypassed.

 

[72HCODE]

disconnect the vacuum advance, and plug it on the manifold or carb. pull the hose off the vacuum advance just in case it accidentally falls into the belt. you don't need to plug the vacuum advance.

well depending on your motor and setup you could be anywhere from 6 degs up to 20 degs of initial. sometimes your lucky and somebody has correctly marked on the balancer where your initial timing should be. Start with 10 degrees of timing if your not sure.

ford had 6-8 degrees in the manual, however retarding the timing too far can cause the engine to over heat.

there are other factors like making sure you do not advance the timing too far.

now:

did you have these carb backfire issues before the petronix install?

was there a time in the past when this engine did run correctly on any setup?

if you answered yes and no and you thought putting in an electronic ignition would help then your looking at the wrong place, you will most likely need to start getting into the carburetor.

best case scenario the carb is just gummed up and needs an overhaul. worst case the carb is good, you need to start fiddling with the accelerator pump shot and cam, and you need to take a good look the mechanical advance on the distributor.

first tell us more history of the car.

 

[f117rt]

disconnect the vacuum advance, and plug it on the manifold or carb. pull the hose off the vacuum advance just in case it accidentally falls into the belt. you don't need to plug the vacuum advance.

well depending on your motor and setup you could be anywhere from 6 degs up to 20 degs of initial. sometimes your lucky and somebody has correctly marked on the balancer where your initial timing should be. Start with 10 degrees of timing if your not sure.

ford had 6-8 degrees in the manual, however retarding the timing too far can cause the engine to over heat.

there are other factors like making sure you do not advance the timing too far.

now:

did you have these carb backfire issues before the petronix install?

was there a time in the past when this engine did run correctly on any setup?

if you answered yes and no and you thought putting in an electronic ignition would help then your looking at the wrong place, you will most likely need to start getting into the carburetor.

best case scenario the carb is just gummed up and needs an overhaul. worst case the carb is good, you need to start fiddling with the accelerator pump shot and cam, and you need to take a good look the mechanical advance on the distributor.

first tell us more history of the car.

The engine is stock 351 C with 2V.

I purchased it in 4 months ago when I noticed a pop in the air cleaner only on hard acceleration. I brought it to a Supposedly knowledgeable mechanic and he said that the Points just needed adjustment.

It ran OK fo a while with no backfiring in the air cleaner.

I then focused on the saftey fixups like brakes front suspension and steering. Now that that was all done and was about ready to research a paint shop and the backfireing started up aging only this time it was worse.

That was what lead me to belive it was the points again, so I decided to go with Pertronix.

I tried to check the timing but I couldn't even see any marks on the balancer. I did clean it off before hand. I loosened the hold down bolt for the distributor but it would not turn for adjustment. Can I spray W-D40 at the base to get it loose?

 

[72HCODE]

ok.

you have a short history with this car.

it could have a fuel feed issue. usually a backfire through the intake out the carb indicates a lean condition. the engine is not getting enough fuel.

now points can also have an effect. as the points wear the timing can change. if the timing retards then you could develop a stumble.

the problem as you describe it came and went and now its much worse, then you switched to a petronixs to see if it would help and its worse then ever.

now the distributor is stuck so that means the mechanic never adjusted the timing. he most likely adjusted the points and though that was it.

yes you can spray wd-40 around the base, you could also try penetrating oil on it and keep spraying it daily trying to free it. these distributors can get stuck.

a few things with the petronix if you have a voltage issue due to the resistance wire not feeding 12 volts to the unit under load then that can cause problems.

however in this case you had points and its the same problem. i would say put your points back on adjust them correctly use a dwell gauge. next i would check all the ignition wires make sure nothing is loose or broken the condition of the rotor and cap is good.

next make sure the initial timing is lets say 10 so you know your ignition is correct and working.

maybe a good idea to have a new coil to try out.

however under heavy acceleration and a lean misfire i would start looking at the fuel being supplied.

look at the carb, move the throttle and see if the accelerator pump is working and the shooters are spraying fuel down the barrels and nothing is clogged. you can do this with the car off, take a flashlight and look down the barrels, then press on the accelerator pump arm and see if fuel sprays.

its possible that you have rust in fuel tank and its clogging things up or pieces of rust from the tank have gone into the carb and could be clogging up the carburetor internally.

do you have an external fuel filter on the fuel line. i would want to see the quality of the fuel that the tank or the fuel pump is providing, is it full of rust particles is it cloudy.

next you could suspect the fuel pump if its not working correctly or is starting to go internally then it would not be supplying the correct fuel pressure when needed.

i would inspect the fuel lines if they are corroded on the outside badly the inside will be just as bad.

if you find your external fuel filter has alot of junk in it, then you may want to drain the tank and pull the fuel sender and have a look at the sock filter and the condition of the bottom of the tank.

the problem here is,, lets say you rebuild the carb and it does have rust and junk inside it, when you hook it back up its just going to clog up again because the tank, or fuel lines, or sender or fuel pump is all full of junk.

first i would put everything back the way it was don't worry about the petronixs for now go back to points and make sure everything is in spec on the spark side.

then i would want to look at the quality of fuel being provided there should be no rust particles inside it and it should be clear.

if the fuel is clear i would want to inspect the fuel system to make sure the tank is clean.

check your engine oil for any signs of fuel contamination, that is a sign the pump is going.

i would get a new fuel pump and a coil and have them on standby to replace.

once i was 100% sure the fuel system was clean then i would open the carb and clean it all out. check all fuel pathways inside the accelerator pump circuit.

once the fuel system is ruled out then we can start looking into the petronix.

 

[73vertproject]

Why not just use a penetrating oil like Freeze-Off to loosen the distributor? I'm not sure of the ability of WD-40 to "break free" the rusted parts, and I don't like the silicone residue it leaves.

I don't know much about these products beyond my experience, but so far I've had good luck with the Freeze-Off in getting parts "unstuck", and it doesn't leave a film on the part like WD-40 can.

Just my 2 cents,

Doc

 

[f117rt]

So, I checked the fuel filter and it was Ok but I changed it anyway.

Still the same problem, I spoke with Garden State Mustang guy yesterday and he thinks that the carb could need rebuilding.

He won't know for sure until he sees it next week.

Now the new delema, if it needs the rebuild/exchange, should i pay to have the carb rebuilt or switch over to a 4V setup?

I never touched a carb before. How difficult is it to just replace the original?

When they send you a rebuilt one, are they usually pre set and you just connect the linkage?

 

[72HCODE]

if you switch to a 4 barrel you may have to change your intake manifold as well.

a carb is pretty simple to rebuild yourself, up till 4 years ago i never touch a carb, now i could field strip them.

if the carb turns out to be the only problem the biggest thing will be cleaning out the fuel passages inside the different blocks, they are quite small and easy for junk to get stuck inside.

to replace the original 2 barrel is easier then the 4 barrel holley offers re-manufactured ford carburetors, they cost about 200$ depends on your original factory equipment.

or you can get more original equipment from re-builders.

going aftermarket ,to open up yoour choices, would require switching out the intake manifold, the reason is the ford carb mount on the intake is not universal, its shaped just to fit certain carbs. Holleys and edelbrocks use a square bore style mount. so you end up pulling the stock intake, and swaping it for a performa intake or something else.

it depends on what you want to do, once you start swaping out the intake manifold it leads to other issues that need to be resolved. like placement of the pcv or EGR, having to relocate the coil, if equipped going from a hot air choke to an electric choke, also losing part of the fuel evaporator system, also you may have to start relocating vacuum trees and changing out vaccum hoses, which can be a big deal if your state has some kind of nazi rules enforcement of emissions controls when or if you require a state inspection, depending on your cars original equipment setup can be a pain or easy.

then every carb has its qwerks holleys tend to be more of a pain to setup because they offer such a wide range of tuning that it can be overwhelming.

edelbrocks tend to be drop in and play, and have better leakage, but are not as tunable if you have some weird engine combination, also the Throttle linkage setup when an edelbrock when setup for a 71-73 throttle and kick down system does not work and will jam which means you have to either change the system over to use a cable(instead of the bent rod linkage) or additionally changing the throttle cable around. the problem is edelbrocks addons go on the side of the carb and make the carb really wide, then everything binds up, holley addons keep the width the same and add linkages front and back. its just easier mechanically on a 71-73 to use a holley but either can be adapted. edelbrocks have a better fuel bowl design as well.

its just one thing leading to another but there will be a performance gain, how much depends on you.

depending on the complexity of the swap the results can be instant from hey i'm driving the car this is awesome, to the car sitting for 6 years because it pissed you off and it turns into a shelf.

on sending out a carb for rebuilding i have no experience. some places you send in your carb and they send you a replacement and keep your original as a core.

others they fix your carb and send you carb back. depends on how original you want the car to be.

 

[f117rt]

if you switch to a 4 barrel you may have to change your intake manifold as well.

a carb is pretty simple to rebuild yourself, up till 4 years ago i never touch a carb, now i could field strip them.

if the carb turns out to be the only problem the biggest thing will be cleaning out the fuel passages inside the different blocks, they are quite small and easy for junk to get stuck inside.

to replace the original 2 barrel is easier then the 4 barrel holley offers re-manufactured ford carburetors, they cost about 200$ depends on your original factory equipment.

or you can get more original equipment from re-builders.

going aftermarket ,to open up yoour choices, would require switching out the intake manifold, the reason is the ford carb mount on the intake is not universal, its shaped just to fit certain carbs. Holleys and edelbrocks use a square bore style mount. so you end up pulling the stock intake, and swaping it for a performa intake or something else.

it depends on what you want to do, once you start swaping out the intake manifold it leads to other issues that need to be resolved. like placement of the pcv or EGR, having to relocate the coil, if equipped going from a hot air choke to an electric choke, also losing part of the fuel evaporator system, also you may have to start relocating vacuum trees and changing out vaccum hoses, which can be a big deal if your state has some kind of nazi rules enforcement of emissions controls when or if you require a state inspection, depending on your cars original equipment setup can be a pain or easy.

then every carb has its qwerks holleys tend to be more of a pain to setup because they offer such a wide range of tuning that it can be overwhelming.

edelbrocks tend to be drop in and play, and have better leakage, but are not as tunable if you have some weird engine combination, also the Throttle linkage setup when an edelbrock when setup for a 71-73 throttle and kick down system does not work and will jam which means you have to either change the system over to use a cable(instead of the bent rod linkage) or additionally changing the throttle cable around. the problem is edelbrocks addons go on the side of the carb and make the carb really wide, then everything binds up, holley addons keep the width the same and add linkages front and back. its just easier mechanically on a 71-73 to use a holley but either can be adapted. edelbrocks have a better fuel bowl design as well.

its just one thing leading to another but there will be a performance gain, how much depends on you.

depending on the complexity of the swap the results can be instant from hey i'm driving the car this is awesome, to the car sitting for 6 years because it pissed you off and it turns into a shelf.

on sending out a carb for rebuilding i have no experience. some places you send in your carb and they send you a replacement and keep your original as a core.

others they fix your carb and send you carb back. depends on how original you want the car to be.

Today I checked the timing, vacuum pressure and fuel prssure and it all checked out to be OK.

Therefore, it looks like its pointing to the carb.

I have never done a carb rebuild so it will be a new endeavor.

I've been told that it is not that difficult.

What do you guys think?

It is a stock 2V (2100 I think, or is it a 2100D?)

Can anyone recommend a rebuild kit and a good step by step instuction book?

 

[72HCODE]

well this would give you a start.

1) version

http://www.automedia.com/Motorcraft_Carburetor_Rebuild/pht20020301cr/1

2) another version

http://www.hurtle.com/cars/mustang/fixes/carb/

here is a rebuild kit

http://mustangsunlimited.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=586+01

its not hard to rebuild a carb, but the first time will make you nervous. take notes when you remove a adjustment screw try to mark how many revolutions it took to bottom it out carefully. the biggest settings would be the idle mixture and idle, since its a 2 barrel you won't have to worry about any secondary adjustments.

basically you take the carb all apart inspect for damage, then you have to clean it out really well the hard part is cleaning out the little fuel circuits and tunnels then assemble it and start to make adjustments.

research more material before you start

 

[73vertproject]

Well, first I think 72HCODE should change his moniker to 72HCOJONES!

"4 years ago I never touched a carb, now I could field strip them." Man, I do admire your attitude. One way or another, the job will get done. And you describe the process so everyone can understand it, even me.

My only experience with carbs was about 15 years back when I rebuilt the four carbs on my '84 Kawasaki ZX900 Ninja. I had the shop manual and tore them apart, but quickly became lost rebuilding them in a small apartment. I had pieces everywhere, it seemed. I finally got them patched together enough to mount them on the bike, and somehow limped it down to the shop where I confessed my sins to the mechanic. I think it was the only time that a repairman ever swore at me. I pleaded poverty and I think I got out of there paying $150 or so. I vowed to never disassemble carb again.

If you have the patience and stick-to-it attitude of 72HCODE, by all means give it a shot if you want to stay stock. Otherwise, I would think about upgrading to a 4 barrel with a performance intake, taking into consideration what 72HCODE said about the complications that arise.

Best of luck!

Doc

 

[f117rt]

well this would give you a start.

1) version

http://www.automedia.com/Motorcraft_Carburetor_Rebuild/pht20020301cr/1

2) another version

http://www.hurtle.com/cars/mustang/fixes/carb/

here is a rebuild kit

http://mustangsunlimited.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=586+01

its not hard to rebuild a carb, but the first time will make you nervous. take notes when you remove a adjustment screw try to mark how many revolutions it took to bottom it out carefully. the biggest settings would be the idle mixture and idle, since its a 2 barrel you won't have to worry about any secondary adjustments.

basically you take the carb all apart inspect for damage, then you have to clean it out really well the hard part is cleaning out the little fuel circuits and tunnels then assemble it and start to make adjustments.

research more material before you start

Appreciate the help!

Great sites!

Ordered the kit and will let you know how it goes.

Do you know what cleaner is used to soak the parts in?

Laquer thinner?

 

[69 Rustang]

Before tackling a carb/intake upgrade swap, I would rebuild the factory carb if that is what you have. For about $40 in parts and materials, you will have a basically new carburetor. I buy the gallon can of Chem dip and I went to the Dollar store and bought a pan that was shaped more like a carb (a round gallon can and a Ford 2V or 4V are not well suited to each other). I pour the Chem dip in the pan and put the carb parts in the pan. Use the basket that comes with the Chem dip for small parts and soak the carb body and lid in the pan. Use good quality rubber gloves that are chemical resistent and avoid reaching into the carb cleaner. That stuff is nasty on the skin, you just won't know it for a while--then it will burn like crazy. I use the Chem dip for soaking, then scrub with an old toothbrush, soak more if needed, scrub more, then rinse with spray can carb cleaner (cheapest cans I can get). The parts will come out looking absolutely new. The factory 2V is a breeze to rebuild even for a first timer. It really is a very simple carburetor and this is a very rewarding project to do.

Now back to the root cause of your problem--are we really sure it is the carb? I read a lot of timing changes, resistor wire/Pertronix, coil, etc that could be the problem. I don't like to parts change as it is expensive and frustrating. So, if the carb needs a rebuild anyway, do it. But before you buy a coil, a fuel pump, etc, some more diagnostics need to be done. Keep us posted how it goes.

 

[72HCODE]

they make carb cleaner and gum clutter they also sell parts wash in large containers. you should get some thin piano wire from a hobby shop also you can run the thin wire through all the little fuel circuits, in combo with the parts wash it can push out a lot of junk, then you can use some sprays to blow out the rest left inside.

some guys repaint the carb to make the carbs look like new, don't do it. the paint just causes problems it can peel off and cause gaskets not to seal correctly, and then if any gets inside it will mess things up.

just clean it with a good brush by hand the best you can, clean out all the holes really well and it will be good to go.

 

[f117rt]

I have been spraying penetrating oil to the distributer base to looosen it up. To un-freeze it do I attampt to turn it with the engine running or can I do it with the engine off?

If it's running and it's still stuck, I'm afraid of nocking the timing way off while forcing it loose.

Thanks

BTW check out my before and after Carb rebuild pics.

 

[72HCODE]

To unfreeze it, have the engine off.

When it's un frozen and turn able then you would reset the timing with the engine running.

If it's still that stuck with penetrating oil, you may want to apply heat with a torch very carefully, avoiding the fuel line.

Or you could try a oil filter wrench that uses a band to attach to the outside of a oil filter with friction, put it around the distributor base, remove the cap, then turn the wrench to get extra leverage to pop the distributor free.

Don't worry about knocking the timing out, because once it's free, put it back about where it was before, start the engine, then adjust it with your timing light to correctly set it.

 

[f117rt]

To unfreeze it, have the engine off.

When it's un frozen and turn able then you would reset the timing with the engine running.

If it's still that stuck with penetrating oil, you may want to apply heat with a torch very carefully, avoiding the fuel line.

Or you could try a oil filter wrench that uses a band to attach to the outside of a oil filter with friction, put it around the distributor base, remove the cap, then turn the wrench to get extra leverage to pop the distributor free.

Don't worry about knocking the timing out, because once it's free, put it back about where it was before, start the engine, then adjust it with your timing light to correctly set it.

Thanks, I'll try that!

 

[f117rt]

After a couple of weeks of spraying th distributor base with Penetrating oil, it finally came loose while using an Oil filter wrench.

I was having problems adjusting timing where the marks would travel, probably due to the fluctuating idle. I finally got a smooth idle at 600RPM and set the timing to 10deg past tdc.

When i put the vacuum hose back into the distributor the idle went up to about 800 and started to fluctuate.

Do I need to re-adjust the fuel mixture and idle screws to git it back to 600rpm?

 

[Joe]

The fact that your idle increased when you hooked up the vacuum advance indicates that your vacuum lines are not in the original configuration. There should be no vacuum present at idle, as the advance should be connected to ported vacuum on the carb. That being said, many experience better performance running the advance off straight manifold vacuum, which is how I have it set up on my '65, and plan on doing on my '72 soon. It sounds like that is how yours is already configured. I know how I time it set up like this, but I won't go into it, simply because I don't feel like having to defend my methods when other posters disagree. Any deviation from the Shop Manual always seems to spark a heated debate (at least this is my experience on other forums).