Saginaw 800 Power steering Box rebuild

[secluff]

Geoff, I don't have a lot of pre 1965 info. The 61-64 T-Bird only part (C5AZ-3647-A R/B C5AZ-X) evidently picked up the 1965 level part number when the 60-64 MPC received it's final revision in 1969. The only size related number I see for the "X" ball is .25" diameter.

The inlet (pressure) and outlet (return) brass seats have Ford hardware numbers and not the typical Ford  formatted part number.

The pressure seat is 374309-S It is 7/16" dia,    top orifice is 9/32" with a 5/16" seat

The return seat is 374480-S     It is 3/8 dia,        top orifice is 9/32" with a 3/8" seat

If you have a favorite parts supplier you may want to check with them. I have have used Green Sales (1-800-543-4959) a few times and they show stock on the 374480-S. The 374309-S I have seen on E-Bay and is still available from Ford. So you may want to check with your local Ford dealer to see what he has. I believe Canadian dealers may be on a different parts locator system from the US dealers so I cannot verify what they may have.

Let me know if you have any problems with the numbers.   

Steve, thanks so much for digging this up for me. I likely will buy from McDonalds as they still have both E and F balls in stock. I will email Green Sales as well, but I don't think they had the sizes ball sets I want. Just to be sure, the seats you mention do fit the Saginaw 800 PS box, SPA-T in my case? I do not know exactly when that version came out

Stay tuned!!

Geoff.

Geoff, all the info I have comes back to the same seat numbers. I checked the applications on some other cars I owned that had a Saginaw gear (three Gran Torino Sports and a 79 XR-7 Cougar). All came back to the same part numbers.

The link DonC posted looks good as the seats appear to include a installation tool. You could also try contacting that company and ask about the 24 spool balls and see if you get the "Deer in the Headlights look" and hear crickets chirping.   :whistling:

 

[Bentworker]

Measured my stash of balls… can't say that with a straight face...

Brand new balls from McMaster Carr… .2812"

Used balls from old GM Saginaw pickup box… .2812"

Used balls from mystery box with 50/50 polished / matte colored balls. Polished ones were .2812". matte ones were .2805"

All measurements were done with a Mitutoyo 0-1" mic, by hand… so the numbers are close but not perfect.

The big surprise to me was that the grey-matte ones were so much smaller!

 

[Stanglover]

https://leepowersteering.com/collections/seat-kit/products/saginaw-gearbox-seat-kit-early

 Don, thank you for this link. I'll definitely check them out today. I'm waiting to see what Dennis Carpenter Industries come up with as well as they have seats in stock, but the Lee set has the installation tool and THAT is a bonus for sure.

Next question would be "how to get the old seats out without damaging the pressure side one way valve thingy" I guess it's probably on YouTube!

With all the information bought forward in this post, it will help me for sure, but unfortunately the supply of these NOS replacement ball sets is very limited.

Geoff.

 

[Stanglover]

Measured my stash of balls… can't say that with a straight face...

Brand new balls from McMaster Carr… .2812"

Used balls from old GM Saginaw pickup box… .2812"

Used balls from mystery box with 50/50 polished / matte colored balls.  Polished ones were .2812". matte ones were .2805"

All measurements were done with a Mitutoyo 0-1" mic, by hand… so the numbers are close but not perfect.

The big surprise to me was that the grey-matte ones were so much smaller!

 Yes, my set of balls measure about the same!! The dark ones I am told are much smaller to prevent jamming the ball screw.

 Interesting about the McMaster& Carr  ones. I had not thought about them as a supplier. The set of standard 9/32" balls I ordered, not yet picked up, have a tolerance of +/- .0001 or.2811 max. These might do in a pinch, but still on the small side if the worm screw is worn at all.

Geoff.

 

[Stanglover]

Love all the talk of old airplanes.  The "Mid-Atlantic Air Museum" is only minutes from my house, and they have dozens of aircraft on display from the 20's through the 80's, including a B-25 and a P-61.  I thought they also had a B-17 but that might fly in for special occasions.  This is just outside the grounds of the Reading (PA) airport, which used to host one of the largest air shows in the US.  Now they have a large WWII weekend in June which attracts many thousands of visitors.  On that weekend I will have aircraft such as B-17, B-25, P-51, and even a B-29 (Fifi) flying directly over my house at low altitudes.  There's no mistaking the sound of those old radial engines.

 Me too, Off subject, but as said before it's my post.

 A few weeks ago, there was a B29 in Windsor, but unfortunately I was unable to go see it due to my completely f'd up hip.

 I just re-signed on to work on the Lancaster now I am able to get around with my spanking new replacement hip. I'm looking forward to that for sure now I have little to do on the Mach 1

Geoff.

 

[Don C]

https://leepowersteering.com/collections/seat-kit/products/saginaw-gearbox-seat-kit-early

 Don, thank you for this link. I'll definitely check them out today. I'm waiting to see what Dennis Carpenter Industries come up with as well as they have seats in stock, but the Lee set has the installation tool and THAT is a bonus for sure.

Next question would be "how to get the old seats out without damaging the pressure side one way valve thingy" I guess it's probably on YouTube!

With all the information bought forward in this post, it will help me for sure, but unfortunately the supply of these NOS replacement ball sets is very limited.

Geoff.

I would screw a sheet metal screw into it and use a small slide puller to pop them out.

 

[Stanglover]

https://leepowersteering.com/collections/seat-kit/products/saginaw-gearbox-seat-kit-early

 Don, thank you for this link. I'll definitely check them out today. I'm waiting to see what Dennis Carpenter Industries come up with as well as they have seats in stock, but the Lee set has the installation tool and THAT is a bonus for sure.

Next question would be "how to get the old seats out without damaging the pressure side one way valve thingy" I guess it's probably on YouTube!

With all the information bought forward in this post, it will help me for sure, but unfortunately the supply of these NOS replacement ball sets is very limited.

Geoff.

I would screw a sheet metal screw into it and use a small slide puller to pop them out.

  That might work. The Ford manual shows the use of a 5/16-18 x2" bolt with a nut and washer. The trick is to use a tap with grease on it and thread the insert just enough to hold the bolt, then use the nut to pull it out. I had skimmed through the section, but somehow missed that part.

As for the correct 'kit' for the pressure side, Dennis Carpenter Industries emailed to tell me they don't have it under #374309-S, but the Ford number is C5AZ-3D728-A. Green Sales do list it under that number and I'm waiting for a quote. This is with the check valve and new seat I assume.

 

[secluff]

Geoff, the 374309-S is the part # for the seat only. C5AZ-3D728-A is the part number Ford released to service the pressure side with what they called a connector, a poppet and a spring. I have dealt with Green Sales before, so usually if something is not ultra rare or off the wall, they usually have fair prices.

 

[donkost]

Love all the talk of old airplanes.  The "Mid-Atlantic Air Museum" is only minutes from my house, and they have dozens of aircraft on display from the 20's through the 80's, including a B-25 and a P-61.  I thought they also had a B-17 but that might fly in for special occasions.  This is just outside the grounds of the Reading (PA) airport, which used to host one of the largest air shows in the US.  Now they have a large WWII weekend in June which attracts many thousands of visitors.  On that weekend I will have aircraft such as B-17, B-25, P-51, and even a B-29 (Fifi) flying directly over my house at low altitudes.  There's no mistaking the sound of those old radial engines.

 Me too, Off subject, but as said before it's my post.

 A few weeks ago, there was a B29 in Windsor, but unfortunately I was unable to go see it due to my completely f'd up hip.

 I just re-signed on to work on the Lancaster now I am able to get around with my spanking new replacement hip. I'm looking forward to that for sure now I have little to do on the Mach 1

Geoff.

There are two B-29's remaining which are capable of flying- "Fifi" and "Doc", so it had to have been one of those.  Similar situation to the Lancaster bomber where I believe there are only two remaining which are able to fly.

 

[Stanglover]

Geoff, the 374309-S is the part # for the seat only. C5AZ-3D728-A is the part number Ford released to service the pressure side with what they called a connector, a poppet and a spring. I have dealt with Green Sales before, so usually if something is not ultra rare or off the wall, they usually have fair prices.

Steve, thanks once again. I'll see what Green Sales come up with for price, but I'm finding these parts are scattered amongst the few dealers meaning buying one part from A. one part from B etc. and having to pay shipping from all of them.

Hmm, getting expensive!! No wonder the price of a reman is so high.

I'll post what I find and decide to do once I have all the details.

Geoff.

 

[Stanglover]

Love all the talk of old airplanes.  The "Mid-Atlantic Air Museum" is only minutes from my house, and they have dozens of aircraft on display from the 20's through the 80's, including a B-25 and a P-61.  I thought they also had a B-17 but that might fly in for special occasions.  This is just outside the grounds of the Reading (PA) airport, which used to host one of the largest air shows in the US.  Now they have a large WWII weekend in June which attracts many thousands of visitors.  On that weekend I will have aircraft such as B-17, B-25, P-51, and even a B-29 (Fifi) flying directly over my house at low altitudes.  There's no mistaking the sound of those old radial engines.

 Me too, Off subject, but as said before it's my post.

 A few weeks ago, there was a B29 in Windsor, but unfortunately I was unable to go see it due to my completely f'd up hip.

 I just re-signed on to work on the Lancaster now I am able to get around with my spanking new replacement hip. I'm looking forward to that for sure now I have little to do on the Mach 1

Geoff.

There are two B-29's remaining which are capable of flying- "Fifi" and "Doc", so it had to have been one of those.  Similar situation to the Lancaster bomber where I believe there are only two remaining which are able to fly.

Interesting.

 

[Stanglover]

Not a good update at this time. I'm not having much luck getting the parts I want. I'm getting answers like "well, I know we had some, but we can't seem to find them"

One vendor has the 'E' size balls separately for a buck fifty each, but not the off size balls which are needed as well. It may be acceptable to use the smaller balls removed from the PS box as they will be slightly smaller, but not the way I want to go.

As for the seats, Green Sales has them as well as the 'kit' for the inlet (pressure) side. Quite reasonable as well. I waiting for them to send an order form.

So this is not going the way I'd hoped so far. No one seems to be in any rush to make a sale, taking their own sweet time to reply.

As for the 100, 9/32" I ordered, well I'm stuck with them as I can't return them, special order. I may be able to use some of them as the 'alternate' size ball and just order 12 of the 'E' size loose balls. I think that would be my only out if I can't find the correct sets.

…………. And the saga continues!!!!

Geoff.

 

[Stanglover]

Getting larger balls is a bust!!

Not joking either. From all the leads I found, one can't find his balls, another just sold the last set (Hmm, I wonder who to?) and a third thought he had some, but only has the "X" balls in stock which are too small, standard 9/32" .2810" by all accounts. None of the rebuilders sell parts nor would offer any help other than, "buy a NEW box from me!"

I was able to buy 2 sets of tube seat. Pressure side with check valves, so that's been my only plus in all this.

The standard 9/32" I bought actually may be of some use. Out of the hundred, well 99 actually, 37 measured .2812" (equivalent to the original size) and 62 measured .2811" @ 70 degs. balls and mic.

 A set I removed from a parts PS box measure .2812" for the bright balls and .2805" for the dull ones, a difference of .0007" The problem is with new balls of the same size, there wouldn't be much if any difference in the free play.

 So people, if anyone else has info on getting a set (or two) of C5AZ3647-E balls .28141" PLEASE let me know.

Geoff.

What I learned today, was not good!

 

[Bentworker]

https://precisionballs.com/

 

[Stanglover]

https://precisionballs.com/

 Thanks for the link. I'll check them out. Someone must supply the balls needed to repair these PS boxes to the remanufacturers.

Question will be, will they supply small quantities.

Just got to ask I guess.

Geoff.

 

[Stanglover]

https://precisionballs.com/

 This may be help to others. Bal-Tec, [email protected], do have ANY size ball you want. They quoted me for .2814" Chrome Steel ball @ $1.74 each. That's quite expensive when you need 22 - 24 balls depending on the box you're rebuilding. On the other hand, if that's all we can get, then it's a bargain compared to buying a reman box for anywhere up to 500 bucks US, plus shipping.

Other info I got from a rebuilder was 99% of the time, they use .2814" balls for all of the 22-24 required, no smaller ball alternating. I thought that was interesting.

Anyway, as ALL the other leads to NOS stock have fizzled out, I have bitten the bullet and ordered 48 balls for the two PS boxes I have. The one in my car and the one on the bench. As I put these together, I will soon find out if I need to install the stock .2810 alternating with the .2814's That will be dependant on the pre-load readings I get at assembly. For now, I do not plan on spending more money on a quick ratio 12.7:1 conversion. but stick with the 16:1-13:1 variable ratio which to be honest, is good enough for normal driving. Getting the steering wheel play out is far more important to me so I can drive at 70 mph one handed with no worries.

The end!

Geoff.

 

[Stanglover]

Well, not quite The End!

I just received my bigger balls! Stop laughing, but I'm still waiting for the new inlet and outlet seats. They're stuck in the damned postal strike, so who knows when I'll get them. I also received a 0-80 in/lb beam torque indicator. It's a Performance Tool M195 and was rated highly in a Best of 10 comparison test. I think it'll do the trick to get the preload set.

I still have to OD grind the sector shaft next week. After that, I can do a dummy run on a spare casting I have to figure out exactly what balls or combination I need to get the 8 in/lb max preload on the input and worm shafts. Still lots to learn and figure out and not something I'm going to rush...…… I got all winter!!

Geoff.

 

[jowens1126]

I asked Red Head Steering Gear if they make a Quick Ratio gear for a 71-73 mustang and they actually do.

https://redheadsteeringgears.com/product/17500-ford-mercury-passenger/

If anyone hasnt heard of them, they basically blueprint every steering gear. All of my fellow Bronco Drivers swear by them. I have been running one in my Bronco for years now and its the best feeling gear Ive had short of Rack and Pinion.

The part number for a Quick Ratio Box for our cars is 17500QW

They cost $381.

check them out.

https://redheadsteeringgears.com/

 

[Stanglover]

Good link there jowens1126. (John?)

For me, it comes down to the friggin exchange rate plus high shipping cost to Canada. That box would cost me at least $550 Cdn all in. Besides, I enjoy the challenge of figuring out stuff like this rebuild I'm doing. It's not cheap either, I'll probably have a couple hundred Cnd in each of the two I'm doing and, like I said earlier, the variable ratio is good enough for the driving I do. Anything is better than the manual steering at 24:1 I took out!!

While we're talking remanufactured power steering boxes, there is a company in Columbus Ohio, Steer & Gear, who have been very helpful to me. Check them out also at www.steerandgear.com

Geoff.

 

[jowens1126]

I dont have the nerves to attempt this kind of rebuild. Buying one, even if its twice as much is better for me. But if you have the skill and nerves of steel, this is an interesting build for sure.

I always wondered how these things worked.