Zero lash

[jpaz]

When you test for lash you want to pressurize the oil system to make sure the lifters are under oil pressure. You dont want them collapsing as you turn the engine and the rods push against the springs. The easiest way to do this is by turning the oil pump with a drill through the distributor port. This should ensure your lifters dont collapse.

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Ok, but I did have the engine running the night before I pulled the valve covers and then I discovered how loose everything was. I will do this before I reset the valve lash just to be safe. I  didn’t think they would bleed down so quick. But now that the engine hasn’t been run in a few days that makes sense. Thanks Tony!

 

[jpaz]

I wonder if the notched lifters are bleeding off too much oil pressure and not allowing the lifters to pump up?

Notched lifters? Not sure what that means.

 

[TommyK]

Isn't that what the "cam saver" lifters are? A lifter with a groove in them to bypass oil to the lifter face?

 

[jpaz]

Oh ya, duh...lol. Yes I do believe they are.

 

[Stanglover]

Damn jpaz, looks like the engine's in for an overhaul this winter. At least you won't have to pull it again...… or will you! 

Sorry it turned out to be 'not so simple' as you/we had hoped.

Geoff.

 

[TommyK]

Oh ya, duh...lol. Yes I do believe they are.

I am not saying this is your problem but if you exhaust all other possibilities in resolving the adjustment issue maybe as a last resort try putting in a set of good quality standard lifters and see what if anything that does. The grooved lifters seem to be the one component that deviates from the norm.

I know many people feel that on a cleveland there is all ready too much oil bypassing the lifter. This is what has given rise to the popularity of lifter bore bushings, at least in some circles.

 

[jpaz]

Oh ya, duh...lol. Yes I do believe they are.

I am not saying this is your problem but if you exhaust all other possibilities in resolving the adjustment issue maybe as a last resort try putting in a set of good quality standard lifters and see what if anything that does. The grooved lifters seem to be the one component that deviates from the norm.

I know many people feel that on a cleveland there is all ready too much oil bypassing the lifter. This is what has given rise to the popularity of lifter bore bushings, at least in some circles.

Oh ok, so these lifters are possibly letting to much oil go by. I did also go with the thick wall pushrods. I believe they have a .080 hole. So with the lifters having the bypass groove they are defeating the purpose of the smaller hole in the pushrods to help keep more oil on the bottom end?

 I didn’t have the bore bushings put in.

 

[TommyK]

Oh ya, duh...lol. Yes I do believe they are.

I am not saying this is your problem but if you exhaust all other possibilities in resolving the adjustment issue maybe as a last resort try putting in a set of good quality standard lifters and see what if anything that does. The grooved lifters seem to be the one component that deviates from the norm.

I know many people feel that on a cleveland there is all ready too much oil bypassing the lifter. This is what has given rise to the popularity of lifter bore bushings, at least in some circles.

Oh ok, so these lifters are possibly letting to much oil go by. I did also go with the thick wall pushrods. I believe they have a .080 hole. So with the lifters having the bypass groove they are defeating the purpose of the smaller hole in the pushrods to help keep more oil on the bottom end?

 I didn’t have the bore bushings put in.

Possibly

 

[jpaz]

I am not saying this is your problem but if you exhaust all other possibilities in resolving the adjustment issue maybe as a last resort try putting in a set of good quality standard lifters and see what if anything that does. The grooved lifters seem to be the one component that deviates from the norm.

I know many people feel that on a cleveland there is all ready too much oil bypassing the lifter. This is what has given rise to the popularity of lifter bore bushings, at least in some circles.

Oh ok, so these lifters are possibly letting to much oil go by. I did also go with the thick wall pushrods. I believe they have a .080 hole. So with the lifters having the bypass groove they are defeating the purpose of the smaller hole in the pushrods to help keep more oil on the bottom end?

 I didn’t have the bore bushings put in.

Possibly

Hmm.....something to definitely to think about. 

What other lifter would be a good choice?

 

[TommyK]

Oh ok, so these lifters are possibly letting to much oil go by. I did also go with the thick wall pushrods. I believe they have a .080 hole. So with the lifters having the bypass groove they are defeating the purpose of the smaller hole in the pushrods to help keep more oil on the bottom end?

 I didn’t have the bore bushings put in.

Possibly

Hmm.....something to definitely to think about. 

What other lifter would be a good choice?

Johnson

 

[71coop]

I would have gone with Crower's stock-style lifters (I am assuming they offer the t ones for a 351c). I don't see the need for those bushings on a street-driven car. As far as I can see, thousands of these engines have been running with no issues, as long as you aren't abusing them (and some do fine with some abuse).

I worry about changing lifters after cam break-in - I know it's been done before with no Issues, especially if you follow break-in procedures like both cam and lifters were new, but that still makes me nervous. Which is why any time I go that deep into an engine, I bite the bullet and do a retro roller conversion - its costly, but I believe it to be worth the peace of mind.

Plus you can get a performance lift for the same duration cam, because the roller setups can allow for faster ramps and more lift for a given duration without a reduction in longevity. But that may be a bigger job than you want to take on right now.

 

[jpaz]

I would have gone with Crower's stock-style lifters (I am assuming they offer the t ones for a 351c). I don't see the need for those bushings on a street-driven car. As far as I can see, thousands of these engines have been running with no issues, as long as you aren't abusing them (and some do fine with some abuse).

I worry about changing lifters after cam break-in - I know it's been done before with no Issues, especially if you follow break-in procedures like both cam and lifters were new, but that still makes me nervous. Which is why any time I go that deep into an engine, I bite the bullet and do a retro roller conversion - its costly, but I believe it to be worth the peace of mind.

Plus you can get a performance lift for  the same duration cam, because the roller setups can allow for faster ramps and more lift for a given duration without a reduction in longevity. But that may be a bigger job than you want to take on right now.

Ya you are probably right, should have maybe just went with the stock ones from Crower.

 I didn’t see the need for a roller set up, not to mention how much more they are. I can change the lifters if I need to, but I sure don’t want to do a cam change.

Why didn’t this motor or the lifters react this way earlier? I have put on about 1200 miles since the rebuild. It was really running great, I could break the tires loose easily even at a 35 roll. I only have a 3.50 rear gear. But anyway I’m just wondering why this didn’t show up sooner I guess.

 

[tony-muscle]

I would give Crower a call before concluding that the lifters are the problem. They may be designed to bleed faster without oil pressure.

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[jpaz]

Possibly

Hmm.....something to definitely to think about. 

What other lifter would be a good choice?

Johnson

That’s what I wanted. in the first place but I couldn’t find them. I was fine with getting them from Crower, guess should have just got their normal ones. I thought I read somewhere they were made by Johnson anyway, but not sure about that.

 

[Don C]

One of the issues with lifters and 351Cs is the depth of the lifter bore and high lift cams, which is one of the reasons for lifter bore bushings. The depressed area around the lifter is where the oil flows from the oil gallery around and into the lifter and when the lifter comes up out of the bore too far the depressed area is exposed and the oil sprays into the valley, instead of being contained in the oiling system.

If the pictures I see of the Crower Cam Saver lifters are correct I would be concerned about the location of the depressed area. It seems to be higher than normal and very likely to extend up out of the lifter bore when on the cam lobe.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66015x3-16/overview/make/ford

When you get the intake manifold off it would be interesting to see what the lifters look like when they are at the lobe peak, and if the depression is exposed, or how far from it. If the chamfers are deeper on some of the lifter bores they may be a problem.

 

[jpaz]

One of the issues with lifters and 351Cs is the depth of the lifter bore and high lift cams, which is one of the reasons for lifter bore bushings. The depressed area around the lifter is where the oil flows from the oil gallery around and into the lifter and when the lifter comes up out of the bore too far the depressed area is exposed and the oil sprays into the valley, instead of being contained in the oiling system.

If the pictures I see of the Crower Cam Saver lifters are correct I would be concerned about the location of the depressed area. It seems to be higher than normal and very likely to extend up out of the lifter bore when on the cam lobe.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66015x3-16/overview/make/ford

When you get the intake manifold off it would be interesting to see what the lifters look like when they are at the lobe peak, and if the depression is exposed, or how far from it. If the chamfers are deeper on some of the lifter bores they may be a problem.

Well at this point I’m not really sure what to do. The machine shop owner that did the machine work on my block and heads wanted me to first take the oil filter off and cut it in half to see if it’s contaminated. I think he wants to try to rule out a cam failure and see if there may be something getting into the lifters that keeps them from staying pumped up. He did say he doesn’t expect there to be anything in it though and he thinks that there could be something else going on. He was so busy that he didn’t have much time to talk and he will be out of town for a few days. I’m suppose to call him Monday and let him know about the oil filter.

I have seen absolutely no evidence of a metal failure of any kind, so I think that’s a waste of time, but I guess I couldn’t hurt. Better to be safe than sorry I guess.

I have no problem with removing the intake to see if you are right about the lifters. That’s probably going to be the next thing I have to do.

 

[Don C]

Your oil filter will keep the metal from getting to the upper part of the engine, as long as the oil pump bypass isn't open. Most of the debris would be below the camshaft, if the cam is failing. Draining the oil and running a magnet through the oil should tell you whether or not there is metal in the pan. Pulling and cutting the filter open, while messy, at least doesn't require an oil change, if it is clean. When you get the filter open run a magnet around in it, too.

 

[jpaz]

Your oil filter will keep the metal from getting to the upper part of the engine, as long as the oil pump bypass isn't open. Most of the debris would be below the camshaft, if the cam is failing. Draining the oil and running a magnet through the oil should tell you whether or not there is metal in the pan. Pulling and cutting the filter open, while messy, at least doesn't require an oil change, if it is clean. When you get the filter open run a magnet around in it, too.

I guess I will start by cutting it open. Thanks again Don

 

[jpaz]

One of the issues with lifters and 351Cs is the depth of the lifter bore and high lift cams, which is one of the reasons for lifter bore bushings. The depressed area around the lifter is where the oil flows from the oil gallery around and into the lifter and when the lifter comes up out of the bore too far the depressed area is exposed and the oil sprays into the valley, instead of being contained in the oiling system.

If the pictures I see of the Crower Cam Saver lifters are correct I would be concerned about the location of the depressed area. It seems to be higher than normal and very likely to extend up out of the lifter bore when on the cam lobe.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66015x3-16/overview/make/ford

When you get the intake manifold off it would be interesting to see what the lifters look like when they are at the lobe peak, and if the depression is exposed, or how far from it. If the chamfers are deeper on some of the lifter bores they may be a problem.

Don, if the depressed area was coming out of the lifter bore, would there be a drop in oil pressure? Or maybe even erratic oil pressure?

 

[Don C]

They would be very brief squirts, dependent on how far they come out (probably not very much), and happen faster than an oil pressure gauge could respond, especially an electric one. Yes, I believe there would be a drop in oil pressure, but probably not huge, and the pressure may still be in the normal range. The oil supply to the lifters is fairly substantial, as they also have to lubricate the rockers via the push rods and the cam lobes.