engine build advice

[kusanagi]

Hi, I hope that I am posting this in the right area.

 I am finally getting around to finishing my build of my Cleveland engine and need a bit of advice on choosing a final few components.

 The spec of the drive line:

 FMX autobox with B&M shift kit fitted ( will be changed to a 4R70W box at later date )

 Torque converter to be bought to match cam choice

 Diff ratio to be changed to possibly 3.50:1

 Limited slip diff to be fitted and uprated shafts

 255/60/15 tyres fitted ( might be changed to 275/50/15 or 295/50/15 at later date )

 The engine spec so far:

 1971 Cleveland block bored +60 thou ( has been sonic checked )

 Sealed power pistons to suit block bore

 Moly rings to suit pistons ( will checked for gap )

 Eagle H-Beam rods

 Clevite HD bearings

 Reground crank ( will be dynamically balanced when a new damper has been sourced )

 ARP studding kit ( heads and mains )

 Large valve and port alloy heads

 Stainless steel one piece valves

 Oil pump blueprinted

 Tall alloy rocker boxes

 Still to source:

 Harmonic damper

 Water pump ( alloy )

 Timing chain and gears

 Camshaft and lifters

 Pushrods ( when distance is known )

 Roller rockers

 Valve spring assembly ( will be bought to match the cam )

 High capacity sump ( will make myself )

 Inlet assembly ( will possibly be ITB's )

 4V Headers ( will connect to 2.5" twin system )

 Camshaft bearings

 Other info:

 engine compression about 10.0:1

 sequential spark and injection on MS3X ECU

 Vacuum pump ( electric ) for power brakes

 The car is mainly going to be a street car with the occasional trip to the strip

So basically I need advice on these items:

 Harmonic damper, what makes should I look for being this is a street engine with only occasional strip use.

 Roller rockers, I was looking at getting either comp cams, lunati or scorpion, or are there any others I should look for.

 Timing assembly, any makes I should avoid or should get ( looking for multiple keyway or adjustable ).

 Lifters ( EDM type ) any makes to avoid or get

 Camshaft, this is what I need the help with the most, I will be remaining flat tappet but I am not certain if I will be using solid or hydraulic. These are some cams I have looked at, I need any opinions if any of them will be suitable.

 Solid flat tappet:

 Lunati

           411A1LUN

           Lobe sep. 112   Overlap. 53   RPM. 2500-6500     Intensity. 34   Clearance. .018/.020

           Lift in. 558    Lift ex.  580      Dur in. 272    @.050     238         Dur ex. 282    @.050     248

Comp cams 

           32-238-4   282S

           Lobe sep.  110    Overlap. 62    RPM.  2000-6000     Intensity.  46    Clearance. .022/.022

           Lift in. 570     Lift ex. 570     Dur in.  282    @.050    236          Dur ex. 282      @.050    236

Crower ( lift could with or without lash clearance, crower do not state )

           15388  282FDP

           Lobe sep. 112   Overlap. 61   RPM. 2200-6000    Intensity. 44/46   Clearance. .022/.024

           Lift in. 522     Lift ex. 533     Dur in. 282   @.050     238         Dur ex. 288     @.050      242

           15389   292FDP

           Lobe sep. 112    Overlap. 71   RPM. 2500-6250   Intensity. 46/48    Clearance. .022/.024

           Lift in. 540    Lift ex. 547     Dur in. 292    @.050    246        Dur ex. 298     @.050   250

Hydraulic flat tappet

Lunati

          62504

          Lobe sep. 110    Overlap. 60  RPM. 2200-6200   Intensity.  43

          Lift in. 561   Lift ex. 583   Dur in. 276    @.050   233    Dur ex. 284      @.050     241

Comp Cams

             32-246-4    XE274H

             Lobe sep. 110  Overlap. 60   RPM. 2000-6000   Intensity. 44/50

             Lift in. 562    Lift ex. 565     Dur in. 274     @.050    230     Dur ex. 286      @.050     236

             32-225-4     280H

             Lobe sep. 110    Overlap. 60   RPM. 2000-6000    Intensity. 50

             Lift in. 530     Lift ex. 530      Dur in. 280      @.050    230      Dur ex. 280    @.050     230

Crower   

             15243    284HDP

             Lobe sep. 112    Overlap. 63   RPM. 2000-6000  Intensity. 56/58

             Lift in. 555     Lift ex. 573      Dur in. 284      @.050     228      Dur ex. 290      @.050   232

             15244   297HDP

             Lobe sep. 112     Overlap. 74   RPM. 2000-6500    Intensity. 61/68

             Lift in. 578     Lift ex. 578      Dur in. 297     @.050    236     Dur ex. 308     @.050    240

             15242   280HDP

             Lobe sep. 112      Overlap. 59    RPM. 1800-6000    Intensity. 60

             Lift in. 526   Lift ex. 540      Dur in. 280      @.050    220     Dur ex. 286      @.050   226

             15966  278H

             Lobe sep. 112    Overlap. 57    RPM. 2200-6200       Intensity. 58

             Lift in. 528      Lift ex. 540     Dur in. 278      @.050     220    Dur ex. 284     @.050    226

If anyone can recommend any cams I could look at that would be great, the only limitations I have got on cam choice are:

 Lift at valve cannot be more than .580

 Lobe separation preferably more than 110, 112 or more would be great

 The power in the 2000-6500 RPM bracket ( preferably below 6000 RPM )

 Overlap preferably around 65 or under but will look at around 70

 Intensity 45-60 ( for better valve train life )

 Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Don C]

Damper - The only two I know of that have the correct snout are Dorman and Pioneer Automotive. Other, better (more expensive), brands do not have the correct length snout and requires spacers.

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-crank-pulley-alinement-issues?pid=149995#pid149995

Roller Rockers - Scorpion or Harland Sharp

Timing set - Cloyes or Howards

Lifters - Hydraulic, Crower or Lunati

Cam - Hydraulic, Lunati 62504, Crower 15243 284HDP or 15242 280HDP, Howards 238001-09 (281/289, Lift .554/.562) or 230041-12 (279/289, Lift .536/.542)

Your engine is only the second one that I have heard of that was successfully bored out to 0.060 over. 0.030, sometimes 0.040, is usually the limit.

 

[Don C]

Just curious, what are you using for a distributor, and what are you using for input for controlling the timing and sequential fuel, and are you welding fuel injector bungs to an intake manifold? What brand?

The intriguing thing, to me, about MegaSquirt is that you can use a Ford TFI distributor with it.

 

[kusanagi]

Hi don

Thanks for the advice, I think it was the pioneer damper that I was looking at before so I think that settles that choice, I think I will be looking at the scorpion rockers and will be looking at the timing sets and lifters you recommended.

I was also leaning in choice toward the crower 15243 284HDP cam before I posted so it looks like I may well choose that one but first I will check the dynamic compression with a calculator before making a final choice.

I was lucky with the re-bore as after machining the block was sonic checked again and the thinnest point which could be found was about 3.5mm on a non thrust wall, the guy who did my machining said that this was one of the best blocks he had seen in a while and had almost zero core shift. The reason the block had to be machined so much was it had over 25 thou of wear on a thrust face on a couple of cylinders.

I will be using LS2 truck packs for the spark ( fully sequential ) and have modified an old Accel distributor into a cam position sensor ( I think a photo of this is in my build ) this combined with a crank position sensor with a missing tooth toothed wheel will control the spark and injection with the Megasquirt ECU, as for the intake I am planning to use some form of individual throttle body on each cylinder, if I cannot buy a complete setup for a reasonable price I will end up making my own including a manifold.

Karl.

 

[Don C]

The determining factor for dynamic compression ratio is when the intake valves close. Closing around 65° to 70° after bottom dead center (ABDC) should give you the dynamic compression ratio you want. Here is a spreadsheet that has some engine calculations

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-engine-and-compression-calculations?pid=199290#pid199290

Cam selection

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-camshaft-selection?pid=278395#pid278395

Torque converter selection

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-torque-converter-selection?pid=208498#pid208498

 

[c9zx]

Hi, I hope that I am posting this in the right area.

 I am finally getting around to finishing my build of my Cleveland engine and need a bit of advice on choosing a final few components.

 The spec of the drive line:

 FMX autobox with B&M shift kit fitted ( will be changed to a 4R70W box at later date )

 Torque converter to be bought to match cam choice

 Diff ratio to be changed to possibly 3.50:1

 Limited slip diff to be fitted and uprated shafts

 255/60/15 tyres fitted ( might be changed to 275/50/15 or 295/50/15 at later date )

 The engine spec so far:

 1971 Cleveland block bored +60 thou ( has been sonic checked )

 Sealed power pistons to suit block bore

 Moly rings to suit pistons ( will checked for gap )

 Eagle H-Beam rods

 Clevite HD bearings

 Reground crank ( will be dynamically balanced when a new damper has been sourced )  

 ARP studding kit ( heads and mains )

 Large valve and port alloy heads     Which Heads ?

 Stainless steel one piece valves

 Oil pump blueprinted

 Tall alloy rocker boxes

 Still to source:

 Harmonic damper

 Water pump ( alloy )  Edelbrock or Stewart

 Timing chain and gears  Cloyes 9 position with Iwis chain, the Z set

 Camshaft and lifters   Custom from Brent Lykins or Mike Jones

 Pushrods ( when distance is known )  Smith Brothers, Manton, or Trend

 Roller rockers   Crower, Lunati (if they have not gone to the Comp Cams part yet), Crane, Scorpion Endurance

 Valve spring assembly ( will be bought to match the cam ) PAC, Isky, Crower, PSI

 High capacity sump ( will make myself )

 Inlet assembly ( will possibly be ITB's )

 4V Headers ( will connect to 2.5" twin system ) 1 3/4" primary pipe size for max TQ, 1.875 for max HP

 Camshaft bearings Dura-Bond

 Other info:

 engine compression about 10.0:1

 sequential spark and injection on MS3X ECU

 Vacuum pump ( electric ) for power brakes

 The car is mainly going to be a street car with the occasional trip to the strip

So basically I need advice on these items:

 Harmonic damper, what makes should I look for being this is a street engine with only occasional strip use.

 Roller rockers, I was looking at getting either comp cams, lunati or scorpion, or are there any others I should look for.

 Timing assembly, any makes I should avoid or should get ( looking for multiple keyway or adjustable ).

 Lifters ( EDM type ) any makes to avoid or get   Crower, Johnson, or Morel

 Camshaft, this is what I need the help with the most, I will be remaining flat tappet but I am not certain if I will be using solid or hydraulic. These are some cams I have looked at, I need any opinions if any of them will be suitable.

 Solid flat tappet:

 Lunati

           411A1LUN I have this cam, ground on 110 LSA, in a 408C, 9.65:1 CR, good power and torque 529/496, very rough idle, 11' @ 1250 rpm.

           Lobe sep. 112   Overlap. 53   RPM. 2500-6500     Intensity. 34   Clearance. .018/.020

           Lift in. 558    Lift ex.  580      Dur in. 272    @.050     238         Dur ex. 282    @.050     248

Comp cams 

           32-238-4   282S

           Lobe sep.  110    Overlap. 62    RPM.  2000-6000     Intensity.  46    Clearance. .022/.022

           Lift in. 570     Lift ex. 570     Dur in.  282    @.050    236          Dur ex. 282      @.050    236

Crower ( lift could with or without lash clearance, crower do not state )

           15388  282FDP

           Lobe sep. 112   Overlap. 61   RPM. 2200-6000    Intensity. 44/46   Clearance. .022/.024

           Lift in. 522     Lift ex. 533     Dur in. 282   @.050     238         Dur ex. 288     @.050      242

           15389   292FDP

           Lobe sep. 112    Overlap. 71   RPM. 2500-6250   Intensity. 46/48    Clearance. .022/.024

           Lift in. 540    Lift ex. 547     Dur in. 292    @.050    246        Dur ex. 298     @.050   250

Hydraulic flat tappet

Lunati

          62504

          Lobe sep. 110    Overlap. 60  RPM. 2200-6200   Intensity.  43

          Lift in. 561   Lift ex. 583   Dur in. 276    @.050   233    Dur ex. 284      @.050     241

Comp Cams

             32-246-4    XE274H

             Lobe sep. 110  Overlap. 60   RPM. 2000-6000   Intensity. 44/50

             Lift in. 562    Lift ex. 565     Dur in. 274     @.050    230     Dur ex. 286      @.050     236

             32-225-4     280H

             Lobe sep. 110    Overlap. 60   RPM. 2000-6000    Intensity. 50

             Lift in. 530     Lift ex. 530      Dur in. 280      @.050    230      Dur ex. 280    @.050     230

Crower   

             15243    284HDP

             Lobe sep. 112    Overlap. 63   RPM. 2000-6000  Intensity. 56/58

             Lift in. 555     Lift ex. 573      Dur in. 284      @.050     228      Dur ex. 290      @.050   232

             15244   297HDP

             Lobe sep. 112     Overlap. 74   RPM. 2000-6500    Intensity. 61/68

             Lift in. 578     Lift ex. 578      Dur in. 297     @.050    236     Dur ex. 308     @.050    240

             15242   280HDP

             Lobe sep. 112      Overlap. 59    RPM. 1800-6000    Intensity. 60

             Lift in. 526   Lift ex. 540      Dur in. 280      @.050    220     Dur ex. 286      @.050   226

             15966  278H

             Lobe sep. 112    Overlap. 57    RPM. 2200-6200       Intensity. 58

             Lift in. 528      Lift ex. 540     Dur in. 278      @.050     220    Dur ex. 284     @.050    226

If anyone can recommend any cams I could look at that would be great, the only limitations I have got on cam choice are:

 Lift at valve cannot be more than .580

 Lobe separation preferably more than 110, 112 or more would be great

 The power in the 2000-6500 RPM bracket ( preferably below 6000 RPM )

 Overlap preferably around 65 or under but will look at around 70

 Intensity 45-60 ( for better valve train life )

 Thanks in advance for any help.

A very ambitious project you have going on. Some of the cams you listed really don't go well with 3.50 gear and "preferably below 6000 RPM". I really think you should contact Lykins Motorsport and speak with Brent about a custom or quasi-custom cam. He builds a LOT of 351C engines as well as others. Best of luck with the build. Chuck

 

[boilermaster]

Kusangi,

what do you expect from this engine and how do you intend to drive it ?

are you indenting on having enough vacuum for power brakes ?

how do you want it to idle ?

Take NO advise from anyone until these questions are answered or you will be misinformed/ disappointed or both.

boilermaster

 

[kusanagi]

Well one of the first cams I looked at 2 years ago when I was first planning the engine build was the Lunati 411A1 cam ( and is still my preferred mech cam ) so it is still in the running until I make my final choice, as for the rear gearing I am not set on a 3.50 ratio as I will be changing the auto box for a overdrive auto box at a later date and I am quite willing to go to 6500 RPM but the engine will not be going there all that often.

Also at the moment the engines compression ratio is at 9.80 to 1 with a standard gasket, I was going to raise it by using a thinner gasket but with the correct cam I may not bother, I will look at a more intense cam choices as I will be using EDM lifters to help valve train life.

The heads I am using are the cheap and nasty Streetmaster 3V heads ( I know, I know ) I have done some work to them and made them a bit more usable, the only reason I got them was they were silly cheap for the pair and my original 2V open chamber heads needed so much work on them I was getting prices of about £2000+ to get them in any usable condition and I was getting quoted silly expensive prices for aftermarket heads made by known makes ( £1800 each for Edelbrock heads ) so I thought I would give these a chance.

As for usage I will mainly be using the car for shows, some street driving and the occasional run on a strip, I will using power brakes but the vacuum does not bother me as I will be fitting a electric vacuum pump to see to its needs, as to how the engine idles it does not bother me , if its smooth fine, if its lumpy that's also fine, the main things I want from it is to be drivable on the street and I would like for the BHP and Torque to be as high as possible but still be usable without revving the engine to bits all the time.

Thanks for the advice and please keep it coming.

Karl.

 

[Don C]

From what I've heard, most aftermarket vacuum pumps tend to be noisy.

You might want to consider hydroboost, which also gets rid of the vacuum brake booster.

 

[Hemikiller]

Not a single one of those cams is going to like a 3:50 gear with an overdrive.

I had the 280H cam in a 71 XR-7 and it produced plenty of vacuum for the power brakes. It was extremely noisy and the power band was crap, but it had plenty of vacuum. IIRC, it was around 13".

 

[Spike Morelli]

That 15966 Crower looks like what you want, 112 LC, duration at .050 good with Automatic and power brakes. I know, I know, we all want our engines to sound like top fuelers, but race engines don't make good street engines, and vice-versa. You can enhance a camshaft's breathing with better heads, intake, carburetion, headers, etc...……..but try to tame or lug a big cam to run it on the street is not efficient. In the end, it's your car, but I'll always advise restraint when choosing a cam grind. as most poor running street engines problems can be traced directly to the cam selected. Your camshaft supplier's tech dept will tell you the same.

 

[kusanagi]

Well after taking all the advice given here and from other sources I have narrowed my cam choice down to two cams, if I go for a solid flat tappet the cam will be the lunati 411A1 cam but if I go for a hydraulic flat tappet it will be a crower 15966. Both cams have very similar valve timing with the lunati cam having a bit more duration @ .050 and a bit more lift, as the car will not be doing much street driving ( it will mainly be a show car ) having to adjust the rockers every now and again for a solid cam is not a problem.

The rear axle ratio will also probably be a 3.73:1 ratio ( which will suit the cams better ) and the tyre's are 27" tall ( 255/60/15 ) and I will see about getting a converter to suit the cam choice ( 2500 - 2800 stall ). After cleaning up my cylinder heads and cc'ing them I ended up with a cylinder head volume of about  67 - 68 cc's, with this measurement and others of the bore I will be ending up with a compression ratio of 9.60:1 to 9.70:1 depending on the head gasket choice, this means with either of the cams I end up with a dynamic compression ratio of about 7.80:1.

the other bits I have still to decide on, are the harmonic damper ( pioneer or powerbond ) is it worth paying out the extra for the steel damper over the nodular iron for street use, and the water pump ( mildon 16235 or flowkooler 1648 ).

Again any advice on these final few choices will be appreciated.

 

[Canted 393]

Go with the flowcooler waterpump, got 1 on my 393C over 500hp and will run 180 degrees all day with a stock 3 core radiator.

 

[c9zx]

Given the stated use, don't be concerned about adjusting solid lifters. If done properly, they don't need to be adjusted very often. Either way, pay attention to optimizing rocker arm geometry and valve spring pressures. It sounds like a solid build to me. Chuck

 

[MeZapU]

I have a Streetdamper on my car. I installed it when my original damper failed in about 1999. Its been on three engines and still going strong. It did not need any spacers and was a direct swap for the original. I highly recommend it.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/flu-620200/overview/

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

Damper - The only two I know of that have the correct snout are Dorman and Pioneer Automotive. Other, better (more expensive), brands do not have the correct length snout and requires spacers.  

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-crank-pulley-alinement-issues?pid=149995#pid149995

Roller Rockers - Scorpion or Harland Sharp

Timing set - Cloyes or Howards

Lifters - Hydraulic, Crower or Lunati

Cam - Hydraulic, Lunati 62504, Crower 15243 284HDP or 15242 280HDP, Howards 238001-09 (281/289, Lift .554/.562) or 230041-12 (279/289, Lift .536/.542)

Your engine is only the second one that I have heard of that was successfully bored out to 0.060 over. 0.030, sometimes 0.040, is usually the limit.

I also have 1970 2v block bored 60 over. Still runs great.

Alex

 

[Robsweden]

Hi

Can you use the B & M shifter with the FMX ?

I read it wrong thought it was a B6M Shifter but it was shift kit , sorry.